Photocoping Pirates!

[Eric]

Recently (about a half a year ago) at Covent Garden in London I was watching an act and really liking it, I gave the guy a worthy tribute, chatted a little and walked off. Actually I rushed off because I don't get to see many street performers where I live so I wanted to get all the knowledge possible from my visit (that would be audience control, gathering crowds, passing a hat, etc, NOT stealing a show).
I trotted over to the outdoor pitch to find that the guy out there was doing THE EXACT SAME SHOW! line for line, trick for trick! He even used the same hat lines!
I was dumbfounded. What was wrong with these people? Is it really like that out there? It's a hard life,
Eric

[martin ewen]

I'm sure there would of been subtile differences like colour of underpants or something.

[Steven Ragatz]

If you are just getting interested in performing, then you will have to make some early decisions. Plagiarism, or stealing, is a popular topic on any performance-oriented forum, this one not withstanding.

Usually, I would avoid hot topics like this one for fear that there be a multitude of replies that I would feel obligated to read. But, things are a little slow at work today, so I will speak my mind in spite of my common sense telling me that discussions on the subject of moral or belief systems will simply be academic and provide no useful outcome.

Funny how everyone says that you shouldn’t steal material, and that the only path to true enlightenment is by creating your own “unique” style and content. Yet, everyone does to some degree or another. It’s not even clear what is “owned” in a performance. In terms of text, one can usually argue that “lines” shouldn’t be snitched. Also, if you are dealing with a technique that has the notion of “tricks”, one could argue about those as being proprietary as well. But what about characters? Or theatrical premises? In terms of a street juggling act, the mere presence of a bowling ball implies a certain degree of material reuse in spite of the context in which it is used. Where that line falls is up to each individual.

I was an avid opponent of stealing material. I was just chocked full of myself with moralistic pride, until I met one individual. This world class performer’s identity is know only to me. I’m sure that he has no idea of his influence upon me. He is the sort that has a skill set that empowers him to walk into any variety venue on the globe and headline. He is an ex-Olympian, well spoken and well educated. His moral fiber and work ethic is top notched. In short, he is inspirational.

We both have families with children. He was specifically hired by a company to learn someone else’s act. They gave him a technical video and asked him to train the act for a long running show in Europe. He did so, giving no regard to the artist who’s video he studied.

I was very startled by this turn of events and I confronted him about it. He simply said that if someone was going to hand him an opportunity to put food on the table for his family that he was obliged to take it. In short – he wanted to work.

Now, as a father of a family, I understand his point, though I am quite sure that I would not have appreciated his perspective if I were still single. Although I still do not completely agree with his rationale, it made me consider that the notion of stealing was not one that was so clearly defined.

I don’t think it prudent to preach from a soap box all the while keeping hypocritical fingers crossed behind my back, so I hope that I don’t tell you, or anyone, how to develop the work. However, I can advise that you make those moral rules and guidelines early and try your best to stick to them, if not for the quality of the work, then for personal integrity and professional satisfaction.

Steve

PS. As for me, of course, I never steal material. Nope. None of my act is used. I prefer to call it “pre-owned.”

[martin ewen]

oh please.
You used to ride a moral high-horse but now you have kids you put it out to pasture.
Your inspiration is a thief, ethically bankrupt and a moral coward hiding behind his offspring as he steals.
To argue about degrees of plagerism is beside the point.
To knowingly study and reproduce some elses material for profit without acknowlegement is theft.
Oh dear- no grey area- excuse me can I borrow your womb?
Its not that big a deal but it annoys me when I see people trying to justify self serving dishonest and unethical behavior by the mere fact that they've used the inflatable piece of flesh between their legs to increase the global pool of greedy protoplasm.
Hitler only invaded Poland so he could feed his people. Attila the Hun had kids to feed.
You're young, full of principles and ideals, you get older, settle a little, start making concessions, have kids, more concessions till one day your kid, young, full of principles and ideals, accuses you of being a hypocrite for any number of reasons, (each an earlier concession) and all you can do is wryly reflect on the idealism of youth, his living, yours dead. and fall back on that old chestnut that never fails to frustrate because its so patently beside the point.
"I fed you."
Having got that off my chest I'll now go and work on my new act that involves juggling 2 balls and an apple-AND EATING THE APPLE AT THE SAME TIME.
I only just thought of it , its brillant.

[Steven Ragatz]

I do not believe that my example or Eric’s example can either be classified as “right” or “wrong”. My views are that the individual determines the degree of acceptable plagiarism and that just because that individuals value system doesn’t happen to match mine doesn’t make that individual a moral deviant.

Making references to children and family aside, there still is a hell-of-a-lot of more important things in the world than another circus performer plying his craft under the auspices of art while holding up some holier-than-though claim on rewritten material. Wouldn’t it be a wonderful place for us if the most significant events in everyone’s lives were Martin entertaining the crowds atop his stilts or Steve bouncing a ball on his head? As much as I think this sometimes, at least the latter, it just isn’t true.

Yes, we are talking about someone’s living here. The work is how each of us puts food on the table for our families and ourselves. No, it is probably not a very nice thing to rob someone else of their ability to fulfill their livelihood. But, there are a lot of self-serving people out there who aren’t very nice, and it comes as no surprise to me that many of them happen to be in the theater arts.

Each of us must hold our ethics and professional practices in check for ourselves and ourselves alone. Although everyone else will be willing to step forward to pass judgment, truly, others don’t really have any say in the matter. It comes from within.

So, I think that each of us must concede that we are all material thieves. But, we can each decide the degree that we deem acceptable.

Now, that won’t give you a warm feeling at night when the bloke down the lane is doing your bit. Ultimately, if it is your material in question, your only recourse is to confront your thief about it. But, I say that you shouldn’t expect them to simply bow down and acknowledge your value system and renounce their own simply because you asked.

Steve

PS. In response to:

“You're young, full of principles and ideals, you get older, settle a little, start making concessions, have kids, more concessions till one day your kid, young, full of principles and ideals, accuses you of being a hypocrite for any number of reasons, (each an earlier concession) and all you can do is wryly reflect on the idealism of youth, his living, yours dead. and fall back on that old chestnut that never fails to frustrate because its so patently beside the point.
I fed you.”

Regrettably - Yep.

[Eric]

I know that if I like a certain trick I will try to learn it, often from the person that I saw do it. This I think is acceptable, but the entire show (line for line, not just basic flow) the same is to me an amazing feat. I know Houdini and other jugglers had immitators, but I thought that was only for really incredibly famous folks.
Again; I have seen things (jokes, comedy throwaways, undeveloped ideas) that I have written down in a notebook, but I think me stooping to copying a whole routine would be a ghastly fate and I would have to need a desprate reason or have asked permission.
I know apprentices pay for matieral (lessons) and I use stuff off of videos and books, but because the author chose to put his stuff out, that justifys it.
It's all very complicated. C'est la vie.
Eric

[martin ewen]

Heres a lovely tale of natural justice.
A few years back a couple of guys visited Covent Garden and spent a week sucking up the structures. They then went far far away and reproduced to the line an amalgam of 2 shows.They were quite successful as smallish fish in a nano pond. Then their hometown threw a festival and invited them, along with a bunch of covent garden die-hards, 2 of whom recognised both the performers as those guys that hung out for a week and the material which was still good as new.
They conspired and got accomplaces and shadowed this particular show for a couple of days and they would wait in the audience and blurt out the lines about a second before the performers did.
Just crucified the shows.
You can call it art or you can call it light entertainment it doesn't matter I think my point is that isn't it grand when you can call it yours.

[Chance]

All main points thus far are valid and could be argued until doomsday: theft, to any degree or measure is still theft; and, is it really criminal to steal some bread to feed my children? Given the specific circumstance, either statement can be held up as true and relevant.

The one answer I can give seems to cover either side of the discussion: make your bed any way you like, but be prepared to sleep in it.

[Rich Potter]

I'm sorry. If someone says, "I'll give you 5000 dollars to steal" and you take them up on it, it's just wrong. And I doubt this guy was just "feeding his family" out of financial need. If he's worth his salt as a performer, there are other ways. If he's not, he should flip burgers.

Why not tell that booking agent, "I do my show. I can create material or tailor my material to your event. If you want the Steve Rag-ass show, hire Steve Rag-ass. If you want The Jim Show, hire Jim. If you want my show, hire me. I can work with you, but I won't stab my colleagues in the back for you."

My two sheckels' worth
--Rich

[Pokie-Poke]

I do ren fairs, and I have had parts of my act "stolen" and it's suposted to be 400 yrs old. http://www.performers.net/ubb/smile.gif
now you said it was for a long running show, If I pay you to be in a show, and you develop a pice for my show and then you leave the show it is still my show, and you would be steeling it from me if you performed it without my permition. eaven if I cant do the act myself.


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The adventure cont...

[Elias Joseph]

As much as we would like our egos to believe our material is "original", the basic principals of out art (circus or theatre) go back 4000 yrs. Almost everything we do in our shows will have some simularity to others.

As for mimicing line-by-line, move-by-move someone else's act, I don't feel any self respecting performer would do that without the originators permission. If they do, regardless of the excuses they are scum.

In my opinion what makes a show unique is the style of presentation. That is your own character, and even if lines or tricks are the same no one will ever do it exactly like you. But if you try to copy that style exactly, that is the only and therefore the ultimate theft.

[Steven Ragatz]

Martin, Rich et al,

"Rag-ass?" Boy, that takes me back... I haven't had someone make fun of my last name since grade school! Maybe we should take this one outside and finish it behind the slides!

Holster all your guns, cowboys. Nobody is saying that plagiarism is right or that the “artistic community” should accept it. I have found that any generalizations on the subject cannot, and do not, cover the specific situations. Age, sex, religions, moral and cultural issues notwithstanding, everyone is different and we all make our own choices in spite of what others might think. Passing some blanket judgment only points out our own naiveté.

Steven RagATZ

[martin ewen]

why should I holster my gun? your patronising tone pisses me off. I may be nieve enough to think that ethics and morality are collective constructs created by and for societys to provide a quantitive respect between individuals rather than just personal values people happen to have that naturally decay through age or circumstance but I'm certainly not nieve enough to confuse personal political expediency with wisdom or maturity.
Although we do agree on one thing
life is regrettable

[This message has been edited by martin ewen (edited 06-08-2001).]

[Butterfly Man]

You become what you admire in others.
- Robert "A. Witney Brown" Nelson

[worldwidese]

I should like to point out that even if someone does a line for line copy, it can never compare with the originator's performance. Each personality will subconsciously put a different spin on it, and there's nothing that meshes so well as the originator and his own material.

We know from experience. When we were in Australia we gladly gave a lot of help to 2 novices, but were astounded when they invited us to see a performance, and found they had copied (badly) all of our numbers! They were not at all embarassed, indeed were very proud of themselves. Lucky we have other programs they didn't see.

To descend from the moral to the practical level, if a person is smart enough to come up with one routine, he is sure to be smart enough to come up with a different twist, or a new routine. Just remember, "imitation is the surest form of flattery." Sure does make you burning mad though. Kelly.

[Eric]

I think the major difference is if what the copier has done can be classified as a "shared" routine that was learned with the aid of the originator; or a "plagorized" routine that was stolen with no credit, no questions, no nothing.
If you learn a trick from a book, that would be a shared style trick because the author, in writing the book and you buying it, gave you that permission.
There was a recent article in JUGGLE magazine about comedy which talked about germs. Germs are the nucleus of the joke, the frame the rest is built apon. If you can use the same joke, but change it so that the audience can't tell it's the same joke, that's good. If you change it but the audience doesn't laugh because they just heard the same thing from the other guy, that's bad.

<stealing is only stealing when stolen from someone> -Eric

[This message has been edited by Eric (edited 06-09-2001).]

[martin ewen]

You're right about 'ascending' to the moral level then decending back to day to day decisions.
Theres a popular belief that humour can be broken down into preset patterns of conflict and resolution(that there are only 5 or 7 jokes or something) and as such we're all just crowded round the teat using these archetypes bare or with our own spin.
That infers that we are all secondary collaborators being used as vehicles by these ideas (memes) for their own advancement.
It comes down to whether we believe we,re unique enough to actually be adding to the worlds content or else in a lesser way just artfully playing with form to survive.
I've been lucky to meet performers convinced that their shows content is secondary to their attitude and form and so while someone may use their structure and content, no-one can reproduce them and the way they relate or share something with an audience.
Still obviously it irks when a piece of content escapes running off reproducing like a rabbit but the gift of looking at things and coming up with a new angle is what street theatre celebrates.
It also celebrates that you can take age old dynamics and walk through them for cash.

<disembowelment is only disembowelment if you're disemboweled>

[Vantage]

Everything has been done before. I doubt that anyone truly believes that the shows they do are not in some part stolen from another. That said, no matter who it was or what the situation I could never steal a whole show. I doubt many here would either. I am certainly guilty of attempting to add some pieces of other acts to my collection. Some day I may incorporate these into a show. Maybe not. I would say that an individual "trick" is generally ok to use. The transitions between the tricks and the interaction with the crowd, the hardest part to steal anyway, is what makes a performers show their own.

[scot]

I think we're talking about stealing whole acts here. My show was once performed by William Howard Taft and my website is www.deadjugglers.com. (http://www.deadjugglers.com.) If you want relief from this dead-end topic, check out my website. Stare at the text and have a good laugh from reading the pictures.

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scot nery
mailto:scot@juggle.comscot@juggle.com</A>
deadjugglers.com (http://www.deadjugglers.com)

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[Pokie-Poke]

I like that apple 2ball thing can I use that, I'm working on a joke about having 7 socks in the drier http://www.performers.net/ubb/wink.gif

oh and for the putzes who stole part of my act, thay suck, one stoped doing it, I tryed to teach the other one how to do the bit right it din't work and he still sucks.

[herbie treehead]

The best shows are the ones where the line has been heard,
then reproduced with the words in the wrong order,
without any idea of the understanding of the original line.
Now, that's real comedy.

Love
Herbie treehead
PS: I stole these words from other people

[herbie treehead]

The best shows are the ones where the line has been heard,
then reproduced with the words in the wrong order,
without any idea of the understanding of the original line.
Now, that's real comedy.

Love
Herbie treehead
PS: I stole these words from other people

[theballoonman]

i agree with you herby...

"work like nobody's watching,make love like you dont need the money,and dance like youve never been hurt before...."

mike
stuck on the cul-de-sac
less travelled.