New York [Archive] - performers.net forums

Pokie-Poke

09-14-01, 02:13 AM

If you are calling any one who lived south of canal st. thay wont get it for a while as everything sout of canal is closed. The shock of the towers colapsing caused earthquake type damage to LOTS of the serounding bildings.
as fare as I know all my frends and family are safe. ( my sister was 1 stop away from the wtc when thay felt a shock like some one droping a jack hammer, the train was held in the tunnel for a while then detoured past the wtc stop because of "smoke in the tunel"
whn she got to work she could see the hole in the bilding. It was a 5 hr, trip home, by way of queens!
On the brite(?) side thay found 5 of the missing fire fighters yesterday in a suv, 3 of witch walked out under ther own power saying where do you want us?! and they found 2 mor today that are still alive tho thay wont relese ther condition.
one of the missing cops is a frend of my sister's he was not caut buy the building at all but was just unable to regroop and was "lost" for a short time. he called his girl frend to tell her he was all right, crying the intire time.
I cant tell you how mutch crying i have done in the past copla days, I was born and rased in New York City, and nomater where I go it is home. I'm sory.

jonnyflash

09-16-01, 03:01 AM

"There are lots of things one can do as an individual (give blood, offer housing billets to stranded travellers, donate to Red Cross, etc), but is there something we can offer as a group?"

The US gov't has in practice declared war upon the citizens of the third world.This
is seen in the dozens of invasions,coups,assassinations,sanctions,privatiza tion of water treatment,etc.
This US imperialism has created a fertile ground for this sort of thing to happen again and again.This problem must be solved,because we are going to be held responsible for what is done in our name.
If your country has been bombed back into
the stone age,there's no clean water and your
life expectancy is 35 yrs,you can be damn sure you'd have a profound and deep hatred
towards the obvious cause of your misery and looming early death.2 can play the "collateral damage" game,and it's time to fight for participatory democracy where we get to vote on every war issue.We
have to fight to change our social structure so we can have a voice to steer our nations away from a likely nuclear future.I know,it's a big job but any
solution short of this is like a bandaid on a shotgun wound.
Here's to getting organized.

Pokie-Poke

09-16-01, 10:29 AM

If let to a vote we would have nuked the basterds allready!!! store billboards with "go get em Bush" cars with "bomb the basterds" on the windows and the like the press is doing it's best to calm things down, but if any thing is left standing than Bush better get in air force one and not land as he wont be welcome in this contry

09-16-01, 11:31 AM

Hi guys,
read this article written in The New Yorker last year......

http://www.newyorker.com/FROM_THE_ARCHIVE/ARCHIVES/?010917fr_archive07

Love to you all, stay above hysteria as it makes decisions irrational....

Daniel Forlano

09-17-01, 12:48 PM

Beginning 1 PM on Tuesday I dug out my New Yorker issues from the last three years looking for that very article "The Real bin Laden" only to discover they republished it on the net. Anyway, since Tuesday I have been reading, listening and researching the complex issue of race, religion and state in the Middle East. The most simple and articulate writer I urge you to check out is Eqbal Ahmad whom I met as a student at Hampshire College. He died in 1999, the semester after I graduated, and it is at a time like this that I wish he were here.
If you have not heard of him it is easiest to familiarize yourself through his better known connections Noam Chomsky, Edward Said, Howard Zinn, and Alexander Cockburn among others. But it is important to realize Eqbal as having his own strengths and influences. Personally, I believe his lesser celebrity gave him a kinder, gentler influence than the academic circle with which he is grouped. Teacher, writer, activist and humanitarian, he has, for me, the most eloquent and unopinionated understanding of how states, races, and religions attempt to co-exist. He has a website devoted to him as well as a book "Confronting Empire."

Here are some links –

About Ahmad: http://www.hampshire.edu/academics/ss/eqbal/

Ahmad's writings: http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Library/9803/eqbal_ahmad/index_eqbal_ahmad.html

Also, I think it important to read/watch main stream AND alternative sources of media. Understanding the systemic conditions which relate us to the conflict is a valuable exploration. Here are some other links:

http://www.thenation.com/
http://www.zmag.org/ZNET.htm

------------------
stitches

[This message has been edited by Daniel Forlano (edited 09-17-2001).]

AJJames

09-25-01, 06:17 AM

Thanks for the informative links from Daniel and Em, moving poetry from Robert and everyone who has expressed sentiments and or opinions.
As much as I feel compassion and sadness over the tragic loss of life in NY, my thoughts now rest with the hundreds of thousands of Afgan refugees now homelss and fleeing their homeland . Jonnyflash said some intelligent things , it is clear as water to me that US foreign policy has brought about this tragedy, however, giving the people the power to make policy is tricky, pokie poke is right that if the common American had the power to push the button that starts nuclear war, they would do so , but that is not surprising when their elected leader irresponsibly incites racism and ignorance with his war mongering play ground bully speeches.
The only glimmer of hope in the us administration is Colin Powell who consistently translates Bushes bravado into rational strategy , thank god he is secretary of state.
To be honest I am not surprised by this attack and I am not surprised by the reaction in the states, what really surprises me is the international reaction especially here in Britain. We hear about suicide bombings in Jerusulem every week, floods in Bangladesh, Earthquakes all over the place, and the next day it's old news.
Earlier this year 30,000 people died in Earthquakes in India, yet we observed no minute silences ,played not the Indian national anthem, recogniesd it not as a time of mourning, or a time to donate to the red cross or give blood.To me this is really tragic.
As for what we can do , well we can all start by reading the "Qu'ran", so people know what they are dealing with, for instance most westerners assume that "jihad" must mean holy war , this is a dangerous misconception , "jihad" means devotional service , a teacher or a doctor can said to be partaking in "jihad".
Real muslims respect all life , the issues of conflict are purely economic not ideological, untill the economic balance is redressed in the world there will always be expressions of discontent.Military strikes will not redress this balance but will create further inequality and therefore will fertilise future attrocties.

martin ewen

09-25-01, 07:56 AM

Thanks AJ for the first glimmer of rational perspective.
Just for numbers sake and to include conflict as well as national disaster.
Rwanda's total of people hacked to death while UN troops stood by powerless because the US (and its lickspittle buddy Britian) Vetoed permission for action to be taken, argueing that isolated incidences of genocide did not constitute genocide proper was 800,000.(thats real people, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters,in some cases fetuses)
Those rich enough, remember that this is africa and not all the victims owned large sports utilities, paid the princely sum of us$32 to be shot in the head as the upmarket alternative.
Once more, that number again
800,000.
While americas tragedy is real I just think that maybe they as a people might, with all their information retrevial tech littering their gadget filled existances, seek to gently extract their heads from their arses and educate themselves as to the price the world as a whole has to pay for their pampered idealogical chicken gruel of the soul.
And cheap oil

Hope I havn't upset anyone.

peterpanic

09-27-01, 03:35 AM

hi everybody! i was offline for a while. did i miss anything?

in 1975 or 6, just before or after the twin wtc towers in nyc were completed, a street performer named phillipe petit walked on a wire between the two buildings. he dressed like a construction worker and hauled gear up freight elevators. he shot a line across with a crossbow. he went back and forth 7 times, carrying a heavy pole. he finally got off after the cops started tapping the wire with nightsticks. he was arrested and examined by a head shrinker, who determined that no sane person would do such a thing- but he seemed to be a danger only to himself. or possibly, on a windy day, someone directly beneath him. he was sentanced to give a free public performance in central park. last i heard he was artist in residence at st. john the divine/unfinished up by colombia. i have always considered this to be one of the single greatest accomplishments by a human being. (even tho he would have needed help) up there with everest or the moon or floating around in a ballon.

when i go to a new city i always compare it to new york. it seems strange to me that those towers no longer dominate the skyline. something unnerving about it. almost biblical. tower of babel and all that. they are saying 80 nationalities worked there.
what goes up MUST come down. not like that tho. i dont know who they will catch or what the punishment will be but i expect a free show in the park is out of the question.
peter pacifist

Triona

09-28-01, 04:06 PM

I have a major problem with your comparison, Ewen. The people who died in those countries were killed by their own people! In some cases, these so called "countries" are arbitrary pieces of real estate that were thrown together by European governments back in the age of colonization, whose native residents were tribes that had been warring with each other since time began.

The attack on the US was done by an outside force. We didn't go to the UN when Tim McVeigh blew up the federal building in Okalhoma City. We deal with our internal issue. Unfortunately, we now have to go to the UN because we are dealing with a country better than half way around the world who's controlling government seems to think there was nothing wrong with what the terriosts did.

I think we have given the Taliban more than enough opportunity to turn that scumbag over. If they want to get tough about it, I only pity the poor people that will be caught in the middle. Then again, they know what's about to happen as well so if they wanted to avoid it, they could have taken matters into hand themselves.

On a another note, that was a beautiful poem Butterfly Man. Can I pass it on to a friend who is with the NYPD? I'm sure they would appreciate your tribute.

Proud to be an American!

Peter Voice

09-28-01, 09:38 PM

Innocent lives are innocent lives, Triona, regardless of historic circumstance or location. Martin's point is about global inequality and economic oppression and I think it's valid. It's also niaive to think that the oppressed people in Afghanstan are in a position to "take matters into hand", as you so blithely put it.

AJJames

09-29-01, 06:32 AM

Trinona,your comments disturb me , are you aware that the oklahoma bombing was originally blamed on so called islamic fundamentalists, are you aware that the U.S along with Britain funded the Taliban and put them in power during the Soviet-Afghan conflict, gave them arms and trained them,
I'm curious are you aware that the Bush administration was funded largely by Esso and other such companies keen for Bush to pass leglislation to expand fossil fuel production, strip mine Alaska and abandon the Kioto agreement?
is your patriotism unquestioning Triona?
Will you feel any safer once Afganistan has been devastaed ,and hundreds of thousands of the poorest and oppressed peoples on Earth have been driven away from their homes? Will you feel satisfactorily avenged knowing that millions of the world's poorest people may die to avenge the lives of 7000 of the world's richest?
you are proud to be an American,
I'm ashamed to be part of the so-called civilised world. Freedom is a great thing to fight for, freedom to live in a natural way has been denied the peole of the world,
but people like you can't see that, you say hooray for U.S.A because they are gonna protect our freedom! our feedom to do what? to build the oil refineries, nuclear submarines, and a Mcdonalds on every street-corner.

worldwidese

09-29-01, 05:29 PM

C'mon performers! Get out of the loop! If you take a long, hard look at what you see on TV and other media, you will begin to realize that it's all about money. Money for whom? The big corporations, who really control the Government. Who got billions of dollars immediately? What did the little guys who lost family, jobs and small businesses get? See?

The airlines laid off thousands. Surely some of the billion dollars could have been used to keep employees on half pay. To them, ordinary guys are like Kleenex tissues. Disposible.

If there's a shooting war, just imagine how big business will be rubbing it's collective hands. All those weapons to sell. All those supplies to deliver. "Wow! we're really in the money, they'll gloat."

Don't let yourselves be herded like sheep. Sit back and think for yourselves. About globalization, which is great for big business, but bad for the individual. About speaking up for lower credit card percentages, now that the interest rate is way down. And start to think about everything on TV as not being gospel truth, but as being slanted. Ever watch CNN Headline News? They have a global MINUTE! Not long to let you know what's going on in the rest of the world.

Maybe read a newspaper from a foreign country. Maybe log on to the BBC world news. Or the Deutsche Welle English Service to find out what's really going on!

I don't remember the author of the quote but somebody once said "People get the government they deserve" Maybe that person was right!

Mr.Taxi Trix

09-30-01, 12:51 AM

Well, I've been into tower one over 20 times in the last six months. As a performer, I've done a 3 day one on one workshop with Philippe out of respect for his tower walk. I've heard free concerts at the courtyard in the shadow of the towers, and eaten at lemongrass, now windowless and silent. I've eaten at Windows on the World with my daughter, niece, and nephew. I'll miss the place.

Given that context, have this. Martin is dead on right. Ass extraction is well overdue. Our arrogance surrounds us like a fart in a closet.

Moreover, there is a gift, handed us by the dark trikster in this deft toppling, if we will but choose it. The ontological gem is this: Life is uncertain. We who spend so much time and energy propping up our surroundings to create the illusion of safety, to insulate ourselves from this fact,
fear what is so.
As sure as a frost will not suffer the sun, we are all going to die. Dwelling in this, dancing with it, allows for living now.

Love you all. See you on the street.

AJJames

10-01-01, 05:54 AM

well it's a lot more reassuring to read that not all Americans are brainwashed ignorant, blood thirsty arrogant, and racist.

Prof Willie B

10-01-01, 06:31 AM

Now, now, AJ. Slow down!
We've all known for a long time that many here have brains. I'd like to think of this as club that transcends nationalities and other generalisations.
Please don't be so rude.

Danny Hustle

10-01-01, 08:16 AM

This is one of the funniest things I've ever read here.

BEFORE he read this post he thought ALL Americans were brainwashed, ignorant, blood thirsty, arrogant, and racist.

But I guess he doesn't think it's ignorant to slander an entire country full of people with wild generalities.

You are quite a guy.

Hey AJ, on a scale of 1 to 10 you're a hypocrite

Originally posted by AJJames:
well it's a lot more reassuring to read that not all Americans are brainwashed ignorant, blood thirsty arrogant, and racist.

Triona

10-01-01, 09:01 AM

Hey AJ,

Did you know anyone who worked in the Trade Centers? I did. I now have a friend who, while he physically survived the catastrophy, he had a burning body fall in front of him (the person had jumped) as he fled for his life, is a mental vegetable. I have other friends who can't sleep and are almost zombified on medications just to keep them going as a result of this.

I am not racists. As I said it's a shame that more people are going to have to die, but if we don't stop it now it will only get worse.

I know we gave the Taliban the guns, I always had a problem with the US govt sticking their noses into other people's problems *Vietnam, Korea, etc.). It has come back to haunt us. The problem is ours now and it needs to be taken care of.

For all of the non-Americans out there who are cherrfully bashing us. Pay back your war debt and stop taking foreign aid from us, then I'll listen. We support most of the world in one way or another, and yet they seem to forget that when something like this occurs.

One good point was made, however, this is about money. Unfortunately, it's how the world runs, right or wrong (personally I think it's somewhere in the middle).

Yes people, my patriotism is unquestioning. My homeland has been attacked and I want the people who are responsible and those who are helping them punished. I want their entire infrastructure destroyed. They tried to do it to us, let's see how they like it themselves.

Just remember, as you go to sleep tonight, that if these acts of war go unanswered, they will only continue and grow worse. On 9/11 it was NYC. Tomorrow it could London, Tokyo, Sydney, who knows. Pleasant nightmares all, God knows we're having them...

Triona

10-01-01, 09:08 AM

Trinona,your comments disturb me , are you aware that the oklahoma bombing was originally blamed on so called islamic fundamentalists

Yep, cause they were the first to claim responsibility.

Will you feel any safer once Afganistan has been devastaed ,and hundreds of thousands of the poorest and oppressed peoples on Earth have been driven away from their homes? Will you feel satisfactorily avenged knowing that millions of the world's poorest people may die to avenge the lives of 7000 of the world's richest?

The firefighters aren't all that rich, neither are the secretaries, the janitors, the retail help (in the basement), or the thousands of other support staff for the rich folk who worked there.

you are proud to be an American,

Damn right I am!

I'm ashamed to be part of the so-called civilised world.

Then go live in a third world country. You just want the comfort and convenience of our wealth, while being able to bash us for it whenever the mood suits you.

[This message has been edited by Triona (edited 10-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Triona (edited 10-01-2001).]

martin ewen

10-01-01, 12:24 PM

I really don't see how to constructively add to an unyealding world view. Still.
foreign aid and selling weaponry are the same thing as far as Us policy goes.
If you don't like it go to a third world country and make Nike's in a sweat shop so people like you can be proud to be an american. 'Damn right'
Sorry damn wrong,
If there were no third world countries then us folks in the first world would have nothing left to rape.
Enjoy your burger, you're entitled to it, the TV tells you so.
I'm sorry, its all a bit messy with people falling out of buildings and real pain and tragidy, but pre-digested pap passing as informed opinion makes you a tool and really the potential you have for thinking for yourself is whats on offer here.
Someone bullied america, america can bully back or evolve.
The playgrounds getting too small for any bullys to survive and Thats my last political contribution.
take care, levity is a strong force.

Paul Garbanzo

10-01-01, 01:19 PM

just to throw my own inflammatory remarks into the mix, I would agree with worldwidese that it's all about the money.

but nobody brought up the point that osama bin ladin is a family member of one of the richest families in Saudi Arabia. that sucker inherited half a billion dollars from his family before he went all cuckoo for cocoa-puffs.

he's nothing but a spoiled rich brat who was upset that he didn't get a hero's welcome when he came home to Saudi after fighting the soviets in Afghanistan. he was also pissed that the US (i.e. the unbelievin' heathen) was in Saudi (i.e. Mecca and Medina, you know, those really holy sites) to help get Saddam out of Kuwait.

I agree that American foreign policy is generally fooked, and anyone (unfortunately) can be president. But to blame it just on the inbalance of money is not looking at the whole picture.

and another thing... who supplies the most food and medical supplies to Afganistan? the US. I think the US would be considered kind and benevolent if we keep up the food supply. I suggest dropping 100 lb. bags of wheat out of a plane.... without a parachute.

oddly enough there are now ..what.. 2 million people fleeing their homes in Afghanistan? Osama seems to have terrorized the afghans as well.. causing major havoc.. that was smart. let's hear it for ruining whatever economy the Taliban hoped to have... nice goin' Osama!

anyway, if you want the conspiracy tip, think back to when we liked the mujahadin (sp) and when the CIA director (hey, wasn't that Bush Senior right before he was vice prez?) was throwin' down the major stacks of cash and weapons to go help our fellow anti-commies? you can kinda go from there with the New World Order conspiracy...

ok, if you've gotten this far, you're probably thinking "what side is this guy on?". I'd just have to say that if I had half a billion dollars, I'd be on any side I wanna be on! SO THERE!

[This message has been edited by Paul Garbanzo (edited 10-01-2001).]

Triona

10-01-01, 03:26 PM

Yeah Paul!

willie the clown

10-02-01, 11:16 AM

perhaps some of you will actuaaly read this missive.
as they beat the drums and wave the flag,i can only wonder who'll be the ones to make the money off of this event. our military may have been sleeping,who could of expected this anyway, but the media was sure awake!
if we as a people are " going after" this osama fellow, what evidence do we really have? i mean he may not be the nicest fellow around but at least he's entitled to a fair trial.
all the parties responsible for say the locherby bombing, and not to mention our own home grown terrorist mr. mcvey, all got a trial,and so did the first bombers of the wtc. so i guess we will give him the same treatment, or are we just going to blow the shit out of another country of brown people?
like deep throat said follow the money! perhaps gw wants to finish his daddies business?
if we can give these people a fair trial, if we can find them, will we have shown the world a higher ethical standard, and perhaps lead the way into a more enlightened headspace or perhaps not.
anger and revenge is a choice, and they both have a time and place,only we can choose when and where,and refuse to lower ourselves to the standards of barbarians.
will the loss of life to afghan's bring back any one of our dead?
the thing is that war gave us most of our art,literature, and stories, in order to save the princess you've got to kick somebodies ass, is it just in our nature?
war has also given us the chance to choose the enlightened path and to show humanities beauty, i.e. the savage destruction opposed to the valiant police and firemen.they put aside there own self intrest and went to the aid of others, is'nt that what made them heros? they were not waving any flag at all ,just trying to save their brotherman. we can all learnb alot from that.
perhaps it's more important to realize that man is a fragile and foolish animal,who inspite of his ignorance makes progress towards enlightenment, one mind at a time.
we can set the example by choosing the right action to flow through us and speaking our minds in public forums, keeping an eye on our leaders, defending our civil liberties and manning the barricades when needed!
as street performers, we have the floor and the ears of the world. a direct forum to the common man. so i have dusted of those old protest songs, gave them a twist, put the hat away, and sang the songs for freedom for the common man,and economic liberty here in bumf**k kansas.
in summation, i quote an irish rebel song named the patriot game
'' come all you old rebels, and list while i sing.
the love of ones country is a terrible thing,
it banishes fear, like the speed of a flame, and makes us all part of the patriot game.''
if anybody can show us how not to deal with terrorist it would be the irish.where did force of arms get any of them?
well, my soap box is cracking, so go out and spread a little sunshine where ever you are, friends, and keep watching the skies. willie

jonnyflash

10-02-01, 10:06 PM

Military Invasions/Coups/Election rigging/Terror and torture/Infiltration
China,1945-1960's
Italy 1947-1948
Greece 1947-1952
Phillipines 1940s and 1950s
Korea 1945-1953
Albania 1949-1953
Eastern Europe 1948-1956
Germany 1950s
Iran 1953
Guatemala 1953-1954
Costa Rica 1955
Syria 1956-1957
Middle East 1957=1958
Indonesia 1957-1958
Western Europe 195os and 1960s
Soviet Union 1917-1989
Italy 1950s to 1970s
Viet Nam 1950-1973
Cambodia 1955-1973
Laos 1957-1973
Haiti 1959-1963
Guatemala again 1960
Algeria 1960s
Ecuador 1960-1963
and on and on.
My hands are getting tired of writing the dates of US military and CIA interventions since WW2.I'm only up to the mid 1960s.Their latest violent scheme is to trick americans into supporting yet another civilian bloodbath in a 3rd world country.How can anyone claim these are the acts of a "great protector of civilization"?This type of indiscriminate killing will create even more angry orphans looking to attack the country that killed their family with fire from the sky before their very eyes.Because
the people of the US can not vote for any of these atrocities,or even have a say(democracy?),they cannot be blamed.It is the US Gov't with the oceans of blood on it's hands.Anyone exposed to the facts will definitely be against the US Govt's policies of terror.You can be anti-US Govt and anti terrorist at the same time.In fact,since the US govt is a terrorist govt by any reasonable definition,it's impossible not to be.

Danny Hustle

10-04-01, 08:00 AM

Yes Johnny, we understand, and Elvis visited your spacecraft.

Originally posted by jonnyflash:
Military Invasions/Coups/Election rigging/Terror and torture/Infiltration
China,1945-1960's
Italy 1947-1948
Greece 1947-1952
Phillipines 1940s and 1950s
Korea 1945-1953
Albania 1949-1953
Eastern Europe 1948-1956
Germany 1950s
Iran 1953
Guatemala 1953-1954
Costa Rica 1955
Syria 1956-1957
Middle East 1957=1958
Indonesia 1957-1958
Western Europe 195os and 1960s
Soviet Union 1917-1989
Italy 1950s to 1970s
Viet Nam 1950-1973
Cambodia 1955-1973
Laos 1957-1973
Haiti 1959-1963
Guatemala again 1960
Algeria 1960s
Ecuador 1960-1963
and on and on.
My hands are getting tired of writing the dates of US military and CIA interventions since WW2.I'm only up to the mid 1960s.Their latest violent scheme is to trick americans into supporting yet another civilian bloodbath in a 3rd world country.How can anyone claim these are the acts of a "great protector of civilization"?This type of indiscriminate killing will create even more angry orphans looking to attack the country that killed their family with fire from the sky before their very eyes.Because
the people of the US can not vote for any of these atrocities,or even have a say(democracy?),they cannot be blamed.It is the US Gov't with the oceans of blood on it's hands.Anyone exposed to the facts will definitely be against the US Govt's policies of terror.You can be anti-US Govt and anti terrorist at the same time.In fact,since the US govt is a terrorist govt by any reasonable definition,it's impossible not to be.

AJJames

10-04-01, 08:22 AM

well done johhny flash ,
Danny , Triona,
sorry if you didn't get the irony , you missed my sentiment, I should have been clearer , I am not saying that all Americans are blood thirsty , arrogant and racsist, infact the most informative links regarding the truth behind the U.S goverment and its agencies are produced by Americans. I am not just bashing americans, the british goverment is just as guilty.And the french, germans ,italians etc
Danny , if I sound like a hypocrite to you for appearing to judge a whole nation on the comments of one or two misinformed racists, well you too are a hypocrite for judging my politics on one comment.
Triona I'm sorry about your friend , you ask if I knew anyone who worked there,the answer is no, but both of my brothers visited the towers a week before the attack, I didn't know for 24 hours if one of my brothers was still in new york.
However emotional you are, vengeance is not yours nor is it your goverment's, it is gods and gods alone.
triona , you are obviously so misinformed about the nature of the world I suggest you go on a world tour ,you desperately need to experience a non-american reality.
For your information regardin us foreign aid,
the united nations passed resolutions for western nation's foreign aid contributions,
the targets were that the U.S and some rich European countries were to donate 0.7% of their GNP (gross national Product) to U.N aid projects.
In the end the USA donated about 0.1% of their GNP, the lowest percentage of any of the aid giving countries.
Lets get your big mouth claims of holding up the rest of the world in perspective shall we!
to use johnny flash's analogy; it's like a band-aid on a shot gun wound,
get real

AJJames

10-04-01, 08:33 AM

Danny,
what planet are you on? what kind of response to Johnny's post is that, what the fuck has Elvis and Space-craft got to do with this discussion?
Is this level of total and utter denial of the truth prevelent in your culture?
I might not respect your opinion but I respect your right to have one and I enter into reasonable and rational dialogue with you and any one who cares enough to express what's on their minds. If you have anything sensible to say , anything that might extend our knowledge like Johnny Flash has, then I for one would like to hear it , if not then leave the rest of us some room to have an intelligent discussion.

Todd

10-04-01, 10:59 AM

Bravo AJ. Dannys banal message seemed to be posted just to annoy. Moronic drivel.

Here is my question to all the posters on this thread (and my question to most people these days):
To all of you who have these strong feelings and opinions, what are you doing about them? What are you doing to make this world a better place? To correct the wrongs you see? I will defend anyone and everyones right to have an opinion, but there comes a point where you have to stop talking and start doing.
So what are you doing?

Please keep in mind I'm not tossing barbs at anyone on here who has expressed thier opinion (after all this is a message board set up to express opinion).(Ok sorry, Dannys post was pretty dumb, but otherwise this has been a good discussion) I simply want to know, are you taking steps in your own life and your own world to help fix the things you see wrong?

Danny Hustle

10-04-01, 11:41 AM

I am not a Hypocrite to base my opinion of you by inflammatory remarks you made. How is that hypocritical? You've lost me. You were making wild generalizations about a country full of people. That is whacked. That is the same as making wild generalizations about someone based on race or religion. If I misunderstood your comment then I would be mistaken, I would not be a hypocrite.

As far as your statistical data is concerned Mark Twain had a wonderful statement about statistics. He said, "There are three kinds of lies, Lies, damnable lies, and statistics."

I am an American. I live in the Boston area. I lost two very good friends that I worked with every day on those planes. Myra Aronson and Graham Berkely were people I spent time with. They were not just a couple of blurry yearbook photos from CNN. My former boss Peter Gay was also on one of those planes. He was a nice guy with a nice family.

My brother flew this same flight 2 weeks before the attack and if the cards had been dealt a little differently I could have been on one of those planes that bright Tuesday morning. For most people that would hit a little too close to home, non?

These people I knew were vaporized along with several thousand other people (not just Americans) most before they had their morning cup of coffee. They were killed by hate filled, propaganda spouting, psychos.

But, I don't hate them, I am not angry, I don't want revenge, I don't think every Muslim is a terrorist anymore than I think every white Christian is a member of the KKK.

What I do know is several thousand people are dead. Moms, Dads, Brother, Sisters, Lovers, and friends.

You and your pals seem to think America brought this on themselves. To that I say fuck you. To that I say you go down to ground zero and hold some mother's hand while she is searching for any piece of her dead son. You do that you heartless fuck and then come back and tell me how this is all America's fault.

This is not the time to armchair quarterback this country. This is not the time to be spouting erroneous and inflammatory propaganda about this country.

If you want to talk shit about America why not use the hard well known facts? They are better than any of the half truths Mr. Flash is bringing up.

You want to hear a great American Horror story? Pull up a chair boys and girls because uncle Dan is going to tell you a bald faced fact so horrific it should give you nightmares.

In the mid 1940's a former haberdasher from Missouri dropped a thermonuclear device on a civilian target in Hiroshima Japan. Not getting the prescribed response he was hoping for, he had another one dropped a few days later on the friendly civilians of Nagasaki. Both targets were specifically targeted because they were civilian.

My opinion is old Harry wanted to make a point. His point was, We know your soldiers are willing to die fighting for what they belive is the good fight. But, are they willing to have their entire bloodline turned to dust?

No other country on this planet has ever used a nuclear device in war time, much less on civilians.

That is a story that should make your blood run cold.

I find it funny that you think you are qualified to comment on what type of "reality" we need when you don't know the first thing about being an American. It is like telling a black man to get a non black "reality". Do you see how insulting that is? probably not, the ignorant rarely do. Also for what it's worth, most of what you call "the truth" I call horse shit. If you put kittens in an oven it doesn't make them biscuits. You, my misinformed friend need to get a more "American reality". Maybe it will help you with this superiority complex you seem to have.

Originally posted by AJJames:
well done johhny flash ,
Danny , Triona,
sorry if you didn't get the irony , you missed my sentiment, I should have been clearer , I am not saying that all Americans are blood thirsty , arrogant and racsist, infact the most informative links regarding the truth behind the U.S goverment and its agencies are produced by Americans. I am not just bashing americans, the british goverment is just as guilty.And the french, germans ,italians etc
Danny , if I sound like a hypocrite to you for appearing to judge a whole nation on the comments of one or two misinformed racists, well you too are a hypocrite for judging my politics on one comment.
Triona I'm sorry about your friend , you ask if I knew anyone who worked there,the answer is no, but both of my brothers visited the towers a week before the attack, I didn't know for 24 hours if one of my brothers was still in new york.
However emotional you are, vengeance is not yours nor is it your goverment's, it is gods and gods alone.
triona , you are obviously so misinformed about the nature of the world I suggest you go on a world tour ,you desperately need to experience a non-american reality.
For your information regardin us foreign aid,
the united nations passed resolutions for western nation's foreign aid contributions,
the targets were that the U.S and some rich European countries were to donate 0.7% of their GNP (gross national Product) to U.N aid projects.
In the end the USA donated about 0.1% of their GNP, the lowest percentage of any of the aid giving countries.
Lets get your big mouth claims of holding up the rest of the world in perspective shall we!
to use johnny flash's analogy; it's like a band-aid on a shot gun wound,
get real

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martin ewen

10-04-01, 04:47 PM

I can't resist, its a weakness.
You come full circle so masterfully I suspect you're a semi transparent prank.
To make generalisations about a country full of people is 'Whack' and then to finish with cold blooded pride re hiroshima and a 'watch out were americans..grrr' thing at the end.
Silly but brilliant.
Everyone knows true americans play the banjo, have no eyelids and follow their sisters into the backroom.(in the event any americans think last statement literal, please go to nearest electrical outlet and insert fork)

willie the clown

10-04-01, 08:14 PM

dear dear people, do you all really believe the crap that comes out of your radio's and t.v's. you should know better. as we all know,the media is the master of illusion and smoke and mirrors. i mean is'nt media manipulation one of our basic skills?
if we can fool some of the people all of the time whats to stop them(THE ALPHABET PEOPLE,CIA DEA KGB,NSC ETC,) from doing worse.
they have created the perfect enemy, unseen faceless and among you!ask anyone of middle eastern extraction if they are scared. talk about terrorism, whose calling the kettle black?
so what the hell are we going to do about any of this? not a damn thing! unless we willing to fight the( your favorite evil here).maybe,we can sit back and learn to juggle hand grenades without the pins,then we might be able to pass the hat to the body bags when they come home.
same circus different clowns,i did not vote for this son of a bush, and i'm not surprised at any of this.are any of you?
how far will we let them go before we say wow man that really sucked, and go back to business?
the business of america is BUSINESS. so who do you think is behind all this nonsense? fucking disney that's who. i smell a rat!
viva the revolution! what do you mean it won't be televised, i saw, you saw,we saw the world fall,fa la la la la! keep watching the skies.
p.s do any of you know the antidotes for nerve agent or blood agent?i'm feeling a little faint. w.t.c(willie the clown)

willie the clown

10-04-01, 08:28 PM

hey lurker,i guess you met some americans while you were here, huh.i bet all you sheep lurkers,from down under,noworries,with the muslim nation breathing down your neck, right,any way my ma and pa are in breeding.and i think the dogs in rut.hey sis are you awake!
hey do you know why cowboys have the names on their belts, so when they pull there heads out of there asses,they know who they are.
viva the revolution,keep watching the skies.w.t.c. gadflies unite

AJJames

10-05-01, 05:51 AM

Danny, I don't know you ,I'm not trying to insult you or call you names , I appreciate this tragedy has shaken you up, I am genuinely sorry if you thought my comments to be inflamatory, I meant them to be informative.
Once again I must emphasize ,my opinion is that the entire western world, including Britain where I live is responsible for terrorist activities all over the world all the time, this isn't me saying it's all america's fault and the rest of the world is innocent.
please don't miss the point, by getting into a slanging match with me.
Besides I don't feel right arguing with you when you are supplying all the amunition for my side.It's not fair.

Danny Hustle

10-05-01, 07:30 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by martin ewen:
I can't resist, its a weakness.
You come full circle so masterfully I suspect you're a semi transparent prank.
To make generalisations about a country full of people is 'Whack' and then to finish with cold blooded pride re hiroshima and a 'watch out were americans..grrr' thing at the end.
Silly but brilliant.

Are you so fucked in the head that you think that statement was pride filled? It was told as a horror story you fucking nitwit. It made my blood run cold to write it.

My point was I am aware that this country has done some fucked things. I am also aware this country and it's ethical behavior is no better than anyone else's.

My main point was so fucking what. What good does it do the world for a person to sit behind their computer and point out the short comings of others? How does that help the world? What does it do other than make the author feel superior?

I'll give you a big hint. It doesn't accomplish one fucking thing other than stir up feelings of anger in the parties being attacked.

If these pompous assholes are so worried about the world why don't they get off their asses and do something to change it and stop sitting around pointing fingers. This thread seems to have a lot of bullshit statistics, let me give you another one. 99% of the people on this planet like to hear themselves talk. The other one percent are the kind of people that when they say they are going to do something they get off their asses and do it. Right now I'd say a large portion of that one percent is fucked.

We Americans are aware that our country is not perfect, thanks for the reminder now shut the fuck up.

Everyone knows true Americans play the banjo, have no eyelids and follow their sisters into the backroom.(in the event any Americans think last statement literal, please go to nearest electrical outlet and insert fork)

I don't think it is meant to be literal but it is pretty odd you would think it was funny. You must be quite a guy.

For the record I am not a troll, ask Jim to check my IP address. I am writing this from Compuware.com Now go and look up my friends Myra and Graham in the list of those killed on the flights leaving Logan. You will see they both worked here at Compuware. As a matter of fact I spent most of the day the Friday before the tragedy getting Myra's laptop prepped for the trip. Check it out, and then call me a troll.

Regards,

Dan-

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Danny Hustle

10-05-01, 07:41 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AJJames:
Danny, I don't know you ,I'm not trying to insult you or call you names , I appreciate this tragedy has shaken you up, I am genuinely sorry if you thought my comments to be inflamatory, I meant them to be informative.
Once again I must emphasize ,my opinion is that the entire western world, including Britain where I live is responsible for terrorist activities all over the world all the time, this isn't me saying it's all america's fault and the rest of the world is innocent.

I don't disagree with any of this,other than the to say the eastern world is just as fucked as the west, but so fucking what? What are you doing to change it? If you are doing nothing other than coming here and insulting Americans (as well as others) and telling fairytales we have all heard a thousand times before, who cares? What does it prove other than you think you are pretty fucking nifty?

please don't miss the point, by getting into a slanging match with me.

Actually it was you that began slanging Americans, and in the most ignorant way at that.

Besides I don't feel right arguing with you when you are supplying all the amunition for my side.It's not fair.

So much for not trying to insult me. Well, that's your opinion. I'd say you've done a pretty fine job of showing your bigotry and hatered.

Regards,

Dan-

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Danny Hustle

10-05-01, 09:08 AM

Hey you know what, I came to this board to learn a little bit more about busking. I do it for fun, but like everything else in my life I want to do it well. Someone told me that most of you guys were top shelf, hard woking bastards, and I could learn a lot here by listening.

So far, he was right. For someone as green as I am to busking this board has been a wealth of information. I have great respect and admiration for all of you guys and gals who have the stuff it takes to stand on the pavement and bring a show to people who didn't even know they wanted to see one.

This being said, I probably shouldn't have even read this thread, I have lost two friends and it hit a little too close to home. I am also an American, that has nothing to do with where I live, it has to to with who I am.

This thread would push the buttons of anyone in my situation. I was and am not angry, I was shocked. I reacted in kind. But, this is not why I come here.

I come here to find out how to work my pitch a little better and draw a stronger line. I want to know what keeps a tip and what sends one walking.

For me, my politics don't belong here, so to quote my grandfather, "Daniel, if you want to be seen stand up, if you want to be heard speak up, but if you want to be appreciated shut the fuck up and bring me a beer."

I'll be shutting the fuck up now, you are all on your own for the beer. http://www.performers.net/ubb/smile.gif
Regards,

Dan-

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AJJames

10-06-01, 05:18 AM

Danny,
please accept my appologies for inflamatory remarks and offensive comments. I'm a jerk sometimes.

AJJames

10-06-01, 06:03 AM

Danny,

Once again, i would just like to appologise, you sound genuinely upset Danny, I'm sorry about your friends,
it must be a total head-fuck,
look man, don't get me wrong, I don't just pick on the U.S goverment, I have issues with every goverment that I read or hear about,I don't hate Americans just because their goverment is corrupt, that would mean I hate myself for having a corrupt goverment,
I've been in the states and I have lots of family and friends who live in New York, and other states, I have also travelled extensively through Europe, Asia and Australia, I have been to NIKE sweat shops in Indonesia, I've been to remote tropical islands in south east asia where the only english they speak is coca-cola, I have studied world Geography,International-Politics ,Economics and Sociology at College as well as learning by working my way around the world,(without the use of any "American Express travellers cheques") don't you dare tell me that I sit infront of my computer and give uninformed opinions,
I have met, lived with and travelled with Americans all over the world, I have also met, lived with and travelled with many other nationalities, I see all people as citizens of the world ,
If you want to sound like your goverment go ahead and turn me into an enemy because I dare to question the policy and strategy of it's administration, I think it's our democratic obligation to question govt policy, and until I wake up in China , where I'd be arrested for doing so, I will continue to , after all our grand parents fought a world war for our DEMOCRACY , which by definition enpowers the citizen to challenge and question political strategy, not so that we could be led blindly by greedy corrupt fools.
and just for the record , I don't own a computer and every post I have put on this and any other thread cost me about $10 ,
and I see exchanging views as useful.
Its people that cry " something needs to be done!" that scare me.

Peter Voice

10-06-01, 07:39 AM

"Refusing to understand why the US is so hated and feared in the Middle East and Central Asia is a profoundly immoral stance because it only increases the likelihood that these crimes will be repeated."
Scott Burchill, Lecturer in Int. Relations Deakin Uni., in "The Age" 10/6/2001.

puppydogstails

10-07-01, 07:18 AM

My friends husband is one of the workers on the site in Manhattan!
For his money these days, he has to pick up fingers and toes, bits of ligament, hair, and saw through limbs to get them out.....a normal days work?
he brings the smell home.
Marriages are breaking up, and these men are abusing drugs and booze to get through.
They still have to work out what do do about the long term care of all the children, who's parents didn't come to collect them from school/nursery on the 11th Sept!
Why not ask those people what to do about Bin Laden?
Would taking him to court be enough for you?
Not for me........but I agree with AJ, in that I am also ashamed to be part of what we call civilized society?
USA are having a war on terrorism? What about all the dosh they gave to Gerry Adams all these years?
I have stood at the top of the towers many times.
one afgan woman was said to have said "who cares about the attacks - we are already dead"
These are the other victims.
It is worse and more dangerous to do nothing, than to do something about it.
Thats my 2 cents!

jonnyflash

10-07-01, 03:26 PM

"Yes Johnny, we understand, and Elvis visited your spacecraft."

Far from conspiracy theory,here are some sources for the information I presented.I challenge each of us to educate ourselves about political and economic realities to better understand world events.

Information Sources:

Killing Hope:US Military and CIA intervention
since WW2 by William Blum

Blackshirts and Reds
by Micheal Parenti

Covert Action Quarterly
(Investigative Journalism Magazine)

Prevailing Winds Magazine
(Investigative Journalism Magazine featuring articles by Oliver Stone,Rosanne Barr,Woody Harelson,Micheal Parenti,etc.)

Z Magazine
(Investigative Journalism Magazine)

Who funded Adolf Hitler?
(Book)

Centre for the Preservation of Modern History
(Organization)

Any of the many books by ex-CIA operatives

School of the Americas Watch
(Organization)

Dark Alliance:The CIA,Contras and Crack Cocaine by Gary Webb(Book and Websites)

Crack the CIA
(Website)

Danny Hustle

10-08-01, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Danny Hustle:
Originally posted by AJJames:
Danny,

I don't hate Americans just because their goverment is corrupt

It's good to know you have other reasons to hate us all. Thanks for clarifying. http://www.performers.net/ubb/smile.gif

don't you dare tell me that I sit infront of my computer and give uninformed opinions,

I never said or implied this. You need to reread the post. What I said was this, "What good does it do the world for a person to sit behind their computer and point out the short comings of others? How does that help the world? What does it do other than make the author feel superior?"

It was a question.

Regards,

Dan-

[/B]

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[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-08-2001).]

Butterfly Man

10-09-01, 05:00 AM

I just arrived back in America this morning after spending the last 10 days in Japan ... interestingly enough I saw two things while I was there that will probably stay with me for a very long time ... one was last week while I was in Nagasaki visiting the atomic bomb museum ... it was a photo of a woman, breast feeding her child, a day or so after the blast in early August of 1945... and the other was this street performer’s hat spilling over with 1000 yen notes (and at least one 10,000 yen one) after finishing his 3rd show at (??????) the day before yesterday just outside (??????)... both were very moving images indeed. I think I’m gonna go drink a beer and think about what you guy’s wrote while I was gone.

Triona

10-09-01, 08:52 AM

Hey Danny,

I'm sorry to hear about your friends. It's been a rough time for alot of us. I think AJ didn't mean to piss us off, it's just that almost anything will set us off right now (an for good reason).

Yes in a way we brought this on ourselves. We gave the guns to the Taliban, now we have to deal with them. We're paying for sticking our nose into someone else's business, but the price was far too high.

Is there a solution to all of this? I sincerely doubt it. Yes the bombings are going to make angry orphans, so did the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon. We can't kill every individual who hates our country. We also can't make them like us. If we did nothing, we would have be seen as weak and the terror would have continued. Either way it's a no win situation.

I'm glad to see that we are dropping supplies to the refugees. They're just as caught in the middle as the folks in NYC. Maybe there's a slim chance that these folks will understand that our fight isn't with them, I have nothing against the Afghanis, but with their government and Bin Laden.

The world has been changed forever, because of the sick minds of a few people. They are not Muslims, they are their own creation. They try to justify their actions by quoting the Koran and the teachings of Mohammed, but they're wrong. I only hope that we can get through all of this without destroying the human race. I'd like my five year-old to have a chance to experience life.

Airborne Dan

10-10-01, 12:48 AM

I am an American. As a street performer I also consider myself a citizen of the world, and as a traveling performer I have been witness to some things I never wished to have seen.

That being said, how the hell could anyone imply that the U.S.A. indeed any country or peoples anywhere deserved or asked for 7,000 civilians to be murdered?

Anyone who says the west or the USA brought this on themselves has their head firmly planted up their most brown orifice.

Yes the USA is the modern Rome. Yes the USA is the biggest arms dealer in the world. Yes the USA has (through its history) invaded many countries. But also the USA has been the single most humanitarian and generous country in the history of the world!

As a country we give more food, medicine and financial help to the third world than the rest of the world combined!

We did not ask for this! We do not want it! But it has happened and now we will face what comes.

Our "terrorist government" (Johnny Shithead) is going to use its political clout and military muscle along with HUMANITARIAN AID to hunt down and bring justice to the criminals responsible for the deaths of 7,000 people.

We have the world at our back. We do not want violence or war but it has been forced upon us and we will win.

The act committed by the terrorists on September 11 was among the lowest, dirty, evil crimes in the history of humanity!

Stop saying anyone brought this on them selves. The only people who brought this on anyone, are the cowards who use their own cult of personality to convince the most impressionable people they could find to sacrifice their lives in the name of God in order to MURDER 7,000 PEOPLE!

Danny Hustle

10-10-01, 07:35 AM

I thought I was the only sane one.
Thanks Dan.

Regards,

Dan-

Originally posted by Airborne Dan:
I am an American. As a street performer I also consider myself a citizen of the world, and as a traveling performer I have been witness to some things I never wished to have seen.

That being said, how the hell could anyone imply that the U.S.A. indeed any country or peoples anywhere deserved or asked for 7,000 civilians to be murdered?

Anyone who says the west or the USA brought this on themselves has their head firmly planted up their most brown orifice.

Yes the USA is the modern Rome. Yes the USA is the biggest arms dealer in the world. Yes the USA has (through its history) invaded many countries. But also the USA has been the single most humanitarian and generous country in the history of the world!

As a country we give more food, medicine and financial help to the third world than the rest of the world combined!

We did not ask for this! We do not want it! But it has happened and now we will face what comes.

Our "terrorist government" (Johnny Shithead) is going to use its political clout and military muscle along with HUMANITARIAN AID to hunt down and bring justice to the criminals responsible for the deaths of 7,000 people.

We have the world at our back. We do not want violence or war but it has been forced upon us and we will win.

The act committed by the terrorists on September 11 was among the lowest, dirty, evil crimes in the history of humanity!

Stop saying anyone brought this on them selves. The only people who brought this on anyone, are the cowards who use their own cult of personality to convince the most impressionable people they could find to sacrifice their lives in the name of God in order to MURDER 7,000 PEOPLE!

Triona

10-10-01, 09:42 AM

Hey Dan,

Like I said, we paid a price for sticking our nose into other people's business, but the price was far too high.

AJJames

10-10-01, 10:59 AM

Just wanted to say, nice one Triona, I didn't want to piss any one off with inflamatory remarks and I didn't want to come accross as insensitive to peoples grief and horror. I'm certainly not in the habbit of labeling whole nations either.
However, I felt and still feel that the majority of the world is well aware of the devastation that terrorists have caused to America (we all watched it live in our front rooms for god's sake).
What isn't broadcast live on CNN is the devastation that US agencies inflict on individuals and nations in the name of preserving freedom, when actually their true motivation is preserving an unfair control of finite natural resources, namely oil.
The USA is to be commended for it's humanitarian efforts, but it has to be put in perspective, alot of countries in the developing world wouldn't need foreign aid if their economic resources weren't pillaged and exploited by western developed countries (not just USA ,by any means)
Yes the USA gives more aid to poor countries than the rest of the world combined, that's true , however it is the richest country and actually gives the Lowest percentage of it's anual income (0.1%)
How did america get so rich? by exploiting the economies of developing countries.
Just one more thing you should know, the USA throws away more food every year than it has given in foreign aid since 1950.
Airborne Dan,I respectfully request you do some research my friend, here's a topic that might put you in the picture (how come gasoline is so cheap in the states when it comes from Saudia Arabia and Kuwait).
Peace and love to all nations,
AJ

AJJames

10-10-01, 11:07 AM

one more thing I almost left out, in response to ;
"But also the USA has been the single most humanitarian and generous country in the history of the world!"
It also has been the single most environmentally destructive country in the history of the world.

Chance

10-11-01, 08:55 AM

If you don't want to support the INTERNATIONAL response to this horrible situation simply because it was the Evil Empire that was attacked along with 7,000 innocent people and their devastated families... then why not consider the tens of thousands of Afghans who have been killed, mutilated or exiled by the Talliban during their very short tenure as "Govt representatives"? Surely something positive can be said for removing this illegal regime and returning a legitimate exiled Government to power, no matter who gets the job done. I can't help but believe this discussion would be VERY different if Australia or England had suffered likewise. And don't for a moment think that they are somehow NOT on that short list of targets.

Danny Hustle

10-11-01, 01:13 PM

Yes John,

The caveat is, you must be careful what you educate yourself with. There is an old computer axiom that fits quite nicely here, called GIGO.

To say, "far from conspiracy theory" and then mentioning Oliver Stone is one of the funnier things I've read here.

You believe as you like, allow me to do the same.

Regards,

Dan-

Originally posted by jonnyflash:
"Yes Johnny, we understand, and Elvis visited your spacecraft."

Far from conspiracy theory,here are some sources for the information I presented.I challenge each of us to educate ourselves about political and economic realities to better understand world events.

Information Sources:

Killing Hope:US Military and CIA intervention
since WW2 by William Blum

Blackshirts and Reds
by Micheal Parenti

Covert Action Quarterly
(Investigative Journalism Magazine)

Prevailing Winds Magazine
(Investigative Journalism Magazine featuring articles by Oliver Stone,Rosanne Barr,Woody Harelson,Micheal Parenti,etc.)

Z Magazine
(Investigative Journalism Magazine)

Who funded Adolf Hitler?
(Book)

Centre for the Preservation of Modern History
(Organization)

Any of the many books by ex-CIA operatives

School of the Americas Watch
(Organization)

Dark Alliance:The CIA,Contras and Crack Cocaine by Gary Webb(Book and Websites)

Crack the CIA
(Website)

LANCEALOT

10-12-01, 08:54 AM

What happens next?

Will bombing Afghanistan prevent further problems......exacerbate present ones or create new terrors?

Have we in our headlong thirst for vengence and justice perhaps attacked the wrong party? Is Bin Laden really the culprit or do we just think he is?

And if so what are the consequences of bombing the Taliban Government? (I would have liked to have seen proof BEFORE any attack took place).

Was the 11 Sept. a manifestation of a bigger, deeper problem that we're not facing or just plain old-fashioned wickedness?

And have we seen the beginning of a new world war or will it all just blow over?
What happens next?

[This message has been edited by LANCEALOT (edited 10-12-2001).]

jonnyflash

10-12-01, 08:12 PM

Jonnyflash's .02:
"Will bombing Afghanistan prevent further problems......exacerbate present ones or create new terrors?"

When I picture my own country's people getting thousands of tonnes of bombs dropped us for the alleged and unproven crimes of leaders I may or may not support,and try to put myself in those shoes,I see no other possible outcome but intense anger at the US.It would doubtless be hard to convince my fellow countrymen that it was not the US people who perpetrated this horror,but their government alone.

"Have we in our headlong thirst for vengence and justice perhaps attacked the wrong party? Is Bin Laden really the culprit or do we just think he is?"

There is no proof that this man did anything but be a good trainee and employee of the CIA for years.
This is in all the papers here in Canada.Aside from the wealthy 1% who see this war as a way out of a deep economic recession,no one I have spoken with believes the US Govt has a shred of conclusive evidence linking Osama to this deed.

"what are the consequences of bombing the Taliban Government? (I would have liked to have seen proof BEFORE any attack took place)".

Unfortunately,as my own govt has offered bomb-throwing planes and men to this US govt-orchestrated effort,Canada's image as a nice peaceful honest country will soon go up in smoke.The cowardly inability of my Prime Minister to go against Bush's edict shall smear the good name of all Canadians in the opinion of the majority of the world's citizens;the 3rd world poor.We will become just another murderous bully out for oil in their eyes.This is what I see as the consequence for Canadians.

"Was the 11 Sept. a manifestation of a bigger, deeper problem that we're not facing or just plain old-fashioned wickedness?"

Funny how our govts go thru the trouble of educating us about the complex and scientific nature of reality,and then turn around and try to sell us a Good VS Evil soap opera fairy tale.I believe we are dealing with groups of real live humans.
There is a huge and long running deficit of humanistic foreign policy that needs to be admitted,dealt with,and then we can all move on.
"And have we seen the beginning of a new world war or will it all just blow over?
What happens next?"
I don't think any other govt wants to face a possible Nagasaki or Hiroshima on it's own
soil to try and stop US Imperialism.I think a few nations' warplanes will carpetbomb that country,then go back home for a McDonalds dinner that same day.If Iraq is any example,the ensuing sanctions will kill 2 or 300000 kids and elderly thru lack of essentials.

jonnyflash

10-13-01, 04:43 PM

Danny Hustle said"If you want to talk shit about America why not use the hard well known facts? They are better than any of the half truths Mr. Flash is bringing up."

Jonny Replies:My facts are well sourced,as you can see on this post.However,there is one fact that perhaps you can help me with.Is there any proof that any Afghani has anything to do with Sept. 11th?If so,please let me know,as the newspapers in my country have not been able to come up with any.I am not personally attacking you,Danny.I'm trying to separate fact from fiction,and truth from (understandably)shock-induced emotion.This is life and death,and I don't feel any of us can afford clouded judgment.

Airborne Dan said:"Our "terrorist government" (Johnny Shithead) is going to use its political clout and military muscle along with HUMANITARIAN AID to hunt down and bring justice to the criminals responsible for the deaths of 7,000 people.

With no proof,the terrorists'nationalities are open to debate.Why pick that country to bomb?Surely there is more than one suspect
for these barbaric acts.Put on a blindfold and spin your globe brisquely,and blindly stick a pin into the surface of the globe.Whatever country you happen to stick will be home to at least thousands of people with a profound resentment at their treatment by the US govt.The entire world will have to be destroyed before the US govt will have killed off all it's enemies. The US govt needs to STOP making enemies by taking and keeping it's hands out of their internal national affairs.The 3rd world does not want to have all it's resources robbed by the 1st world.A few (relative)pennies of
charity really don't make up for the systematic expropriation of wealth that the US govt has so humanitarianly been engaging in.(And the rest of the first world too)
And the humanitarian bombing is just the icing on that bitter cake.

Airborne Dan said"That being said, how the hell could anyone imply that the U.S.A. indeed any country or peoples anywhere deserved or asked for 7,000 civilians to be murdered?"

Jonny replies:
I've studied the posts here,and no-one has said or implied that any US citizens deserved Sept 11th.We the people;questioning and ultimately changing US foreign policy, is to many minds the only hope for a world without state terrorism,individual terrorism or any other kind of terror.True patriotism demands justice and peace for the nation.

"The caveat is, you must be careful what you educate yourself with."

Jonny replies:
I believe education is a duty and responsibility of every man, woman and child.
Why should I depend on the corporate media to dictate my ideas?I have serious doubts that the politicians,CEOs,land barons and editors have my well being at heart.In fact,I suspect that what's bad for us good for them.War,high rents,high unemployment and low minimum wage are all very good things for the rich.This is how they get even richer.On the other hand,for us,the rentpayers,soldiers,and workers these things are all terrible.It's important to know our interests,or we will never have a say over these things.We deserve a say,I figure.

"LikeI said,we paid a price for sticking our nose into other people's business, but the price was far too high."

Sticking the nose into other people's business means staringgossiping,sneaking,going through drawers,listening in on a private call,etc.

It certainly does not mean mass murder thru gun,bomb,tank, and medical supplies sanctions.Destroying water treatment plants and hospitals doesn't count either.These are just not the acts of a nosy person.

The debate we are having here is happening all around the world right now.The best of us are seeking long-term answers to these big questions in every nation on earth.All war will end with participitory democracy.A true democracy where we decide the course of action instead of just whether to wave a flag or not.

Chance

10-13-01, 04:57 PM

Johnny, you are overlooking the fact that OBL took personal credit for at least two previous attacks against American targets, and has, whether you care to see it or not, been linked to at least two others -- even not including the one on Sept 11th. So even if he were innocent of THAT one, there is still ample evidence, from his own mouth no less, which convicts him of terroristic violence.

Any other bubbles you want me to break?

LANCEALOT

10-13-01, 08:04 PM

I understand your point Chance. Osama Bin Laden did indeed admit responsibility for attacking the US on previous occasions. However he plainly stated that the Sept. 11 attacks were nothing to do with him. Despite this the US has branded him guilty. Now I am not trying to defend Osama, however making this guy a scapegoat simply because there are no other obvious suspects will only exacerbate an already dire situation and I shudder to think of the consequences yet to come as a result of attacking Afghanistan and the Taliban government.

We all know that this will probably turn out for the worst and all our justifiable reactions no matter how 'right' we try to make them will eventually bring nothing but grief.

Like Ghandi said: "The only problem with 'an eye for an eye' is that it whole world will eventually go blind". Perhaps we should use our eyes while we have the chance?

[This message has been edited by LANCEALOT (edited 10-13-2001).]

jonnyflash

10-13-01, 10:27 PM

Chance, since when is dropping bombs on civilians an appropriate response to the actions of a few unrelated people?

You still have not provided proof that Osam bin Laden was involved in the events of Sept 11.

It's times like these when the worlds economic and political scene makes me wish that I DID live in a "bubble".

Chance

10-14-01, 03:40 AM

Chance, since when is dropping bombs on civilians an appropriate response to the actions of a few unrelated people?

Without getting into a morality pissing contest (with you or anyone else), deadly force has been used against the innocent during warfare from time immemorial. Like it or not, it is part and parcel of "getting the job done". Don't sit there and try to color it as some kind of American invention. Most of the so-called civilized countries are thousands of years old, with an equal amount of military experience. The US is barely 240 years old. You do the math.

You still have not provided proof that Osam bin Laden was involved in the events of Sept 11.

Nor did I offer to. You would make an excellent propaganda writer. Why not just say that I did not provide proof that OBL is not really a transexual? It would make about as much sense.

It's times like these when the worlds economic and political scene makes me wish that I DID live in a "bubble

You are not alone in this. However, the biggest mistake that anyone can make would be to run for the nearest cave or uninhabited island and try wishing things away just beause they seem so terrible. Even worse is to stay put and criticize those who dare to do something about it -- even if what they measure out seems just as brutal as what caused the reaction in the first place. If you are really bothered, why not get involved in a way that can make a real difference? Maybe politics? Maybe law enforcement? Counseling? Religion? Firefighting? You get the point.

Chance

10-14-01, 02:35 PM

However he plainly stated that the Sept. 11 attacks were nothing to do with him.

Lance, you will forgive me if I don't wipe my forhead and sigh, "Whoo! OLB just announced that he is innocent of these crimes -- so it must be true."

What alternative did he have, pray tell?

I am certainly not in the loop, but it seems to me that even HE was shocked by the enormity of it all, given the total collapse of both towers, etc. I am believing that even he realized, albeit after the fact, that he had gone a too far.

In his distorted perspective, had he been in the position of the US, OBL would have wasted no time sending in the bombers loaded with Einstein's invention. So, at least to me, he was cringing in anticipation of getting the same, and rushed to press with his so-called claim to innocence. Between the lines his true message was: "PLEASE! Don't nuke us! I didn't mean it, really!"

As a postscript, just today (Sunday) the Taliban announced that terror attacks would continue and that Muslims around the world should stay out of tall buildings and airplanes. But I suppose this is just some morbid coincidence with Sept 11th, yet without direct implication?

Sorry. I was born, but I wasn't born yesterday.

jonnyflash

10-14-01, 05:37 PM

Chance said:
Lance, you will forgive me if I don't wipe my forhead and sigh, "Whoo! OLB just announced that he is innocent of these crimes -- so it must be true."

What alternative did he have, pray tell?

I am certainly not in the loop, but it seems to me that even HE was shocked by the enormity of it all, given the total collapse of both towers, etc. I am believing that even he realized, albeit after the fact, that he had gone a too far.

In his distorted perspective, had he been in the position of the US, OBL would have wasted no time sending in the bombers loaded with Einstein's invention. So, at least to me, he was cringing in anticipation of getting the same, and rushed to press with his so-called claim to innocence. Between the lines his true message was: "PLEASE! Don't nuke us! I didn't mean it, really!"

As a postscript, just today (Sunday) the Taliban announced that terror attacks would continue and that Muslims around the world should stay out of tall buildings and airplanes. But I suppose this is just some morbid coincidence with Sept 11th, yet without direct implication?

Sorry. I was born, but I wasn't born yesterday."

Jonny flash replies:
Playing what-if games and
attempting to psycho-analyze the suspect in this tragedy really doesn't clarify anything.After their country began to sustain massive damage from the bombs of your government,retaliation was promised.
This still doesn't mean that Osama or any Afghani is linked.Your arguments are too subjective to hold weight in any court of law.Does your government think that they are above international law? Obviously they do.They felt fine violating the Geneva War Convention's laws barring acts of agression against the people and nation of Yugoslavia.
We need to do more than conform to the uniform opinion presented to us from on high.
Member posted 10-14-2001 04:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chance, since when is dropping bombs on civilians an appropriate response to the actions of a few unrelated people?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chance said"deadly force has been used against the innocent during warfare from time immemorial. Like it or not, it is part and parcel of "getting the job done"."

jonny replies
Getting what job done?Killing women and children?If every political,relgious and ethnic group held your philosophy,Chance,
then we would surely all be dead by now.

Chance said"
Don't sit there and try to color it as some kind of American invention. Most of the so-called civilized countries are thousands of years old, with an equal amount of military experience. The US is barely 240 years old. You do the math."

Are you suggesting that the US still has a lot of genocide,torture and imperialism "credits" to use up before it is subject to the same standards {Geneva War Conventions}as the rest of the international community?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You still have not provided proof that Osam bin Laden was involved in the events of Sept 11.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Nor did I offer to. You would make an excellent propaganda writer. Why not just say that I did not provide proof that OBL is not really a transexual? It would make about as much sense."

The pretext for the ongoing US bombing spree is not that they are hunting down a transexual,it is that they are hunting the organizer of the events of Sept. 11th.One cannot compare an irrational what-if game
to national war mobilization.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's times like these when the worlds economic and political scene makes me wish that I DID live in a "bubble
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chance said:
"If you are really bothered, why not get involved in a way that can make a real difference? Maybe politics? Maybe law enforcement? Counseling? Religion? Firefighting? You get the point."
Jon replies:
I certainly am bothered.I am bothered at the deep historical amnesia all around North America.
I believe that we all need to be engaged in our country's political life,and keep track of our history.This is the only thing that will make a real difference.Leaving this task to the professionals will ensure that the world never advances beyond this point in history.We made it thru feudalism and monarchy and there's no reason our situation can't get better still.

Chance

10-15-01, 01:19 AM

I have never said that I know for sure that any particular person or group was responsible. How could I?

What I have said, is that OBL has publicly taken credit for several other bombings and acts of terror -- for which he has already been indicted. Even before Sept 11th he was on the run from authorities for mass murder. So why all the energy standing up for this madman, I wonder? Would you want your kids to play with him?

As for a court of law, many a case is built upon circumstantial evidence; there is not always a body or a smoking gun. Sometimes it's just too many coincidences for the guys own good which brings him down. That, and possibly a taped satellite telephone conversation!

...playing games and attempting to psycho-analyze the suspect in this tragedy really doesn't clarify anything.

Are you serious? Psychological profiling is a common and invaluable tool used for many activities, not the least of which is profiling criminal behavior.

...After their country began to sustain massive damage from the bombs of your government, retaliation was promised.

More propaganda. You are treating this like it is some kind of lone action on the part of the US, and this is simply not the case and you know it! This action is supported by dozens of governments, INCLUDING almost every Muslim country.

Furthermore, the Taliban themselves are not the rightful govt of Afghanistan. They are usurpers, and have done more to the detriment of their own people than any bombing could ever do. Seven million refugees, fleeing the hand of the Taliban for years, is nothing to sniff at.

A personal question: Can you in all honesty completely overlook the significance of that Taliban warning yesterday of staying out of tall buildings and airplanes? This made no impact with you at all?

[This message has been edited by Chance (edited 10-15-2001).]

AJJames

10-15-01, 06:23 AM

A few notes, the vast majority of people I've spoke to are in support of a global cooalition against terrorism but AGAINST military assaults on Afghanistan, as the offensive intensifies their are more and more anti-war demonstators all over the world (more white protesters than muslims), however, the greater the opposition to the strikes , the more the media feel it nesercary to say that 90% of people support Bush and Blair.
The only anti war demo's I see on the news are of muslims ,I happen to know of live rallys and demos from the internet and personal friends.These protests are taking place all over the western world by all religions but the press doesn't report it, instead it reports that the vast majority of people support the assault.
If this is about capturing Bin Laden ,why is the reward for his capture only $5 million and the cost of destroying the country he lives in is upwards of $50 million dollars per night, if I really wanted this guy to stand trial I would spend that money trying to capture him ,not give him millions more supporters, cos that's exactly what's happening , America and Britain are turning moderate fence sitters into fundamental supporters of Al -queida and co, by behaving in this criminal way.
When I say criminal, someone's going to say it was a crime that was done unto us first etc,
But in this so called civilised world we have things called laws, local, regional, national and international. Under national law or federal law as you might call it if someone murders your friend and you go and murder the culprit ,you will be sent to prison, because we have a police and judicial system that ensures everyone's entitlement to a fair trial where eveidence must be shown to the court until the court is beyond reasonable doubt of the defendants guilt.
can anyone please tell me why , the U.S and Britain can get away with acting outside the parameters of international law defined by the united nations? They are just flaunting their global influence like a mafia would do.

If you and I can't take the law into our own hands ,why can Bush and his cronies?

Lastly I find myself in the bizare position of agreeing with Chance on one point he made, it wasn't Bush or even the USA that invented tyranical regimes, as far back as you go in history it's always about the big bad empire oppressing the little people by cruel and barbaric means.
The current middle east crisis has as much to do if not more to do with Britain's interventionalism than America, the list of Britains international crimes is a lot longer than America's, it's just that USA has built it self a big list in a very busy century and is now the world wide symbol of power and corruption in modern times.
one question to leave you on, has anyone else noticed that Bush is always holding back a big cheesy grin and sometimes doesn't even hold it back, what's that about? as if we don't know, he's loving every minute of this, and that makes me sick!

nuff said
increase the peace

Danny Hustle

10-15-01, 08:10 AM

AJ, I don't know what country you are from but anti war protests are on the news every night here in the USA. And not just Muslim. They also show the HUGE amount of people here who support the war. Interestingly, almost 100% of the people I talk to support the military action. Imagine that.

Point number two. No one want's to bring Bin Laden to trial. We are at war, there are no points of parliamentary procedure, no Marquis of Queensbury rules, do not pass go and do not collect $200.00. That time has passed. War was declared against the United States of America and it is now defending itself. there is enough evidence to support that Osama Bin Laden is responsible for many terrorist attacks against Americans. he has admitted to them. There is also a trail of cash that leads directly from the folks who hijacked those planes right back to Osama. This may not be enough proof for you but it is plenty for me. In order to defend her borders the United States of America has declared war against all terrorists and terrorist organizations it feels threatens the safety of her citizens. If you think it is unusual for the US to declare ware against terrorists, it isn't. Our third president (Jefferson) declared war against the Barbory pirates for pretty much the same reasons. Check a valid US history book as well as the comic books you like and you might actually be able to read between the two and see something a bit closer to the truth.

It has not one iota to do with revenge or blood lust it has to do with the preservation of the people and ideals this country was founded upon. If you disagree with them thank god you don't live here but don't be such a fucking hypocrite that you come here to fill your hat with my money and then bad mouth me the second I walk away. It's poor form.

As far as Bush's cheesy grin goes, I'm not surprised to see you've added mind reading to your list of credits. Unfortunately, your not very good as Bush has had that same cheesy grin since the late 80's. I suspect it has more to do with his irritable bowel than his blood lust. Perhaps some digestive biscuits with his tea might help, non?

Originally posted by AJJames:
A few notes, the vast majority of people I've spoke to are in support of a global cooalition against terrorism but AGAINST military assaults on Afghanistan, as the offensive intensifies their are more and more anti-war demonstators all over the world (more white protesters than muslims), however, the greater the opposition to the strikes , the more the media feel it nesercary to say that 90% of people support Bush and Blair.
The only anti war demo's I see on the news are of muslims ,I happen to know of live rallys and demos from the internet and personal friends.These protests are taking place all over the western world by all religions but the press doesn't report it, instead it reports that the vast majority of people support the assault.
If this is about capturing Bin Laden ,why is the reward for his capture only $5 million and the cost of destroying the country he lives in is upwards of $50 million dollars per night, if I really wanted this guy to stand trial I would spend that money trying to capture him ,not give him millions more supporters, cos that's exactly what's happening , America and Britain are turning moderate fence sitters into fundamental supporters of Al -queida and co, by behaving in this criminal way.
When I say criminal, someone's going to say it was a crime that was done unto us first etc,
But in this so called civilised world we have things called laws, local, regional, national and international. Under national law or federal law as you might call it if someone murders your friend and you go and murder the culprit ,you will be sent to prison, because we have a police and judicial system that ensures everyone's entitlement to a fair trial where eveidence must be shown to the court until the court is beyond reasonable doubt of the defendants guilt.
can anyone please tell me why , the U.S and Britain can get away with acting outside the parameters of international law defined by the united nations? They are just flaunting their global influence like a mafia would do.

If you and I can't take the law into our own hands ,why can Bush and his cronies?

Lastly I find myself in the bizare position of agreeing with Chance on one point he made, it wasn't Bush or even the USA that invented tyranical regimes, as far back as you go in history it's always about the big bad empire oppressing the little people by cruel and barbaric means.
The current middle east crisis has as much to do if not more to do with Britain's interventionalism than America, the list of Britains international crimes is a lot longer than America's, it's just that USA has built it self a big list in a very busy century and is now the world wide symbol of power and corruption in modern times.
one question to leave you on, has anyone else noticed that Bush is always holding back a big cheesy grin and sometimes doesn't even hold it back, what's that about? as if we don't know, he's loving every minute of this, and that makes me sick!

nuff said
increase the peace

martin ewen

10-15-01, 11:11 AM

Dan
your obviously misguidedly under the assumption that argument consists of a kind of insult and sarcasm contest which is sad really as your transparently ill equipped.
'I don't know what country you're from'.....
'The comics you like'...
All top shelf stuff (thats sarcasm)
now perhaps in reply to this you can run to a dictionary and collect some really good abusive and sarcastic words that add to your already sparkeling collection which so far, on this post alone, consist
of
"fuck you"
"shut the fuck up"
"fucked in the head"
"fucking nitwit
'Shut the fuck up" (again)
"pompous assholes"
"so fucking what"
"fucking hypocrite"

Two other things, could you stop cutting and pasteing the letter you object to in full before you rant as it gets a bit tedious to re-read everything. (although It'd be really reactionary if you carried on, that would sure score one on me)
and secondarily could you stop trying to represent the american point of view and just speak for yourself because you see I,m otherwise having a lovely time here in connecticut and your embarrasing some american friends of mine.
thanks ever so and remember your country needs you and don't ever change.

AJJames

10-15-01, 12:00 PM

Martin, you said it perfectly, bravo,
Dan's copy and pasting is indicative of his inability to remember further back than the last point in a discussion. He finds it impossible to conduct reasoned dialogue, and resorts to personal insults rather than tackling an issue which is evidently too complex for his gold fish like attention span.

Danny Hustle

10-15-01, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by martin ewen:
Dan
your obviously misguidedly under the assumption that argument consists of a kind of insult and sarcasm contest which is sad really as your transparently ill equipped.

But calling me ill equipped isn't insulting? I'm sorry, so what you are saying is it is all right for you and yours to insult me and mine as long as I don't respond in kind.

That's precious.

'I don't know what country you're from'.....

That was a serious question. I don't know what country he's from.

'The comics you like'...
All top shelf stuff (thats sarcasm)
now perhaps in reply to this you can run to a dictionary and collect some really good abusive and sarcastic words that add to your already sparkeling collection which so far, on this post alone, consist
of
"fuck you"
"shut the fuck up"
"fucked in the head"
"fucking nitwit
'Shut the fuck up" (again)
"pompous assholes"
"so fucking what"
"fucking hypocrite"

I think these sum it up quite well. Am I the only one who has employed the "F" word in this thread? Hmm...

Two other things, could you stop cutting and pasteing the letter you object to in full before you rant as it gets a bit tedious to re-read everything.

Then don't read it Martin. That's simple enough.

(although It'd be really reactionary if you carried on, that would sure score one on me)

yes, you are just racking up the points, congratulations. I know that for you nothing feels finer than pointing out the shortcomings of others.

and secondarily could you stop trying to represent the american point of view and just speak for yourself because you see I,m otherwise having a lovely time here in connecticut and your embarrasing some american friends of mine.
thanks ever so and remember your country needs you and don't ever change.

I've never claimed to speak for anyone other than myself. As far as your friends in Connecticut are concerned, the stupid usually seek each other out. I hope you are all having a jolly time at the expense of the dead. What a fun group.

have a nice day http://www.performers.net/ubb/smile.gif

Regards,

Dan-

[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-15-2001).]

Danny Hustle

10-15-01, 02:46 PM

I find it very funny AJ, that you and your pal have just accomplished nothing but insulting me without mentioning any of the valid points I had in my response to your last rant. If that isn't the pot calling the kettle..

Then you have the nerve to say that I have the attention span of a gold fish.

Why don't you talk about the USA's declaration of war? What about Bin Laden's admissions of committing treachery against the USA? Did you miss all of that? Or are you just having a small problem facing the facts?

I think it's a lot easier for you to call me a potty mouth than it is to listen to the facts.

Regards,

Dan-

martin ewen

10-15-01, 03:50 PM

Danny
I'm calling you ill equipped not strictly as an insult but more as a statement of fact in much the same way as calling a blind person blind is not an insult.
an example
You don't know where AJ's from??
Perhaps it might take more than 20 years you've been working on computers to pick up all the little details but eventually you will notice that on top of every post here on P.net theres a question mark.
Now if you move the cursor up to that question mark and click then, ..hey.. it tells you about the person posting.
In AJ's case it mentions that he's from some foriegn sounding place and if you look real close and clech your forhead you can see .co.uk on his e-mail.
If you ask someone brighter than yourself what that means they'll tell you it stands for Britian. UK= Britian
I'm sorry if I sound condecending to you but you have to learn these things or else you could go round giving morons a bad name.
Maybe you knew he was born of a woman and knew he lived in England but didn't know where other than that he came from.
As for the 'fucking nitwits' and the 'shut the fuck ups' they don't sum anything up but you.
They are hollow generic expressions containing nothing but anger and intolerance.
And in my opinion it is YOU who are using the tragic death of innocents who were collectively part of a pluralistic society to vent your narrow minded intolerent spleen.
You certainly don't defend them and in even attempting to betray your immaturity.
You neither represent them or the 100% of the people you state agree with your opinions.
You are simply an inarticulate shallow little nonentity bellowing selfishly over the graves of people who would be embarrassed to have you hijack their deaths for your own pathetic ends.

Triona

10-15-01, 04:15 PM

Okay guys (Martin, Ewen, etc.). can you please back off of Danny. This guy just lost friends in a senseless act of violence that I doubt any of you would disagree should never have happened.

I agree with him on some of his points, this act of war had to be answered. However, I also realize that there will be more innocents hurt in the process. I said it before and I'll say it again, it's a no win situation.

Trying putting yourself in Danny' shoes next time you lash out.

P.S. Be careful of white powder in your mail. They've found it in the UK, Austrailia and several other countries around the world. Poor innocent terrorists...

Todd

10-15-01, 06:35 PM

While I feel for Danny and sympathize,
Dannys loss is not a "Get out of Jail Free" card for him to spout-off and reduce his counter arguments in this little debate to unsupported attacks ,Ex. "Elvis has visited your spacecraft" (I'm paraphrasing).
Danny isn't the only one who has lost people, just some of us are not parading it around as an excuse to vent our anger with the kind of moral self assurance that is exemplified by members of the Taliban. Ex. "I'm right your wrong, so there" adding on to these arguments "I'm hurting and pissed off so deal"
Danny needs to deal with his grief outside of here and this debate.
I don't agree with everything being stated by everyone here in this little debate, but clearly its Dannys grief that is motivating him and making him emotionally unavailable to conduct himself in a rational manner in this debate.
BTW guys lets get this back on track as a debate, you know argument, counter argument etc. and less emotional.

jonnyflash

10-15-01, 07:05 PM

Danny said:I have never said that I know for sure that any particular person or group was responsible. How could I?
What I have said, is that OBL has publicly taken credit for several other bombings and acts of terror -- for which he has already been indicted. Even before Sept 11th he was on the run from authorities for mass murder.

JF replies:When civilians are going to be torn apart by cluster bombs,maybe just doesn't cut it.The US govt has committed mass murder on many ethnicities.Does this give any terrorist the right to target US citizens?I like to think not.

"So why all the energy standing up for this madman, I wonder? Would you want your kids to play with him?"

JF replies:
My goal is to bring light to the roots of this conflict.Cia created a beast it cannot control.That is the problem.They are training and equipping and employing more beasts as we speak.THIS is the source of this problem.

Danny said:
As for a court of law, many a case is built upon circumstantial evidence; there is not always a body or a smoking gun. Sometimes it's just too many coincidences for the guys own good which brings him down. That, and possibly a taped satellite telephone conversation!

JF replies:
The bombing of the MOVE activist center in Philly in 1985,The murders in the Waco,Texas "compound",and a myriad of other cases prove beyond doubt that the US government is quite capable of killing it's own people for no reason.This govt has 2000000 of it's own in jails,so many times more per capita than any of the more civilized countries.
Why should we believe they'd be any more honest or righteous now than they have been in the past?

Danny said:
"Furthermore, the Taliban themselves are not the rightful govt of Afghanistan. They are usurpers, and have done more to the detriment of their own people than any bombing could ever do. Seven million refugees, fleeing the hand of the Taliban for years, is nothing to sniff at."
JF replies
I agree.But really,which US-installed regime has ever done anything for their people?

Chance

10-16-01, 01:25 AM

Jonnyflash, putting aside for the moment your inflammatory rhetoric and transparent xenophobia, how seriously is anyone going to take your arguments when you are incapable of investing what little time is required researching Who wrote What on these (comparatively) insignificant pages?

Danny Hustle

10-16-01, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by Todd:
While I feel for Danny and sympathize,
Dannys loss is not a "Get out of Jail Free" card for him to spout-off and reduce his counter arguments in this little debate to unsupported attacks ,Ex. "Elvis has visited your spacecraft" (I'm paraphrasing).

Todd,
You evidently didn't see AJ's remarks about how he hates all Americans or all of Martin's various insults.

I would also like you to notice that while I may have a potty mouth, my comments were never limited to insults. I always responded often point by point with what I believe are valid arguments as to why I disagree with their point of view.

I don't think I am required to talk nicely to people who admit they hate not only me but all of my country men.

Danny isn't the only one who has lost people, just some of us are not parading it around as an excuse to vent our anger with the kind of moral self assurance that is exemplified by members of the Taliban.

I'm not using it as an excuse for anything. I am also not angry. How do you get angry at a guy who is so bigoted that he admits his hatred of an entire country full of people simply because of their geography.

Also, have you not noticed that these two have commented only on my so called insulting remarks while ignoring the argument?

Ex. "I'm right your wrong, so there" adding on to these arguments "I'm hurting and pissed off so deal"

I never said or implied this. If you are going to quote me, quote me. Do not make up lies. I made my statement about the loss of my friends as an attempt at apology. I thought I may have misunderstood AJ and Martin's comments. Then after reading their continued America bashing I see I was not mistaken. They are simply bigoted. I don't like bigots. I responded in kind.

Danny needs to deal with his grief outside of here and this debate.
I don't agree with everything being stated by everyone here in this little debate, but clearly its Dannys grief that is motivating him and making him emotionally unavailable to conduct himself in a rational manner in this debate.

I want you to point out where my points are not rational? Are you going to sit there and tell me that America has not declared war on Terrorism? Are you going to tell me that Osama Bin Lauden has not admitted to having been involved in past attacks against Americans? Are you also going to tell me that Oliver Stone and Rosanne Barr are experts on American history?

I think you might need to reread my posts without viewing the insults. In my opinion, my insulting comments were only responding in kind to insults made against myself and my countrymen.

BTW guys lets get this back on track as a debate, you know argument, counter argument etc. and less emotional.

Again, reread my posts you might find more useful information there than you think. Also hit Amazon.com or your public library and check out some of the afore mentioned reading list and then tell me that those books do not resemble more fiction than fact. I've actually read a few of them.

Again in closing I would like to reiterate that I am not angry at anyone. I do think AJ and Martin should clean up their own country before they feel compelled to comment on a country they in my opinion know very little about.

Regards,

Dan-

Great sprits often encounter violent oposition from mediocre minds.

Danny Hustle

10-16-01, 08:36 AM

Danny
I'm calling you ill equipped not strictly as an insult but more as a statement of fact in much the same way as calling a blind person blind is not an insult.

And please enlighten me as to how you have become enough of an expert to judge who is and is not ill equipped? How is this "fact".

Because to me, and this is only my opinion, it makes you sound like a pompous ass.

an example
You don't know where AJ's from??
Perhaps it might take more than 20 years you've been working on computers to pick up all the little details but eventually you will notice that on top of every post here on P.net theres a question mark.
Now if you move the cursor up to that question mark and click then, ..hey.. it tells you about the person posting.
In AJ's case it mentions that he's from some foreign sounding place and if you look real close and clech your forhead you can see .co.uk on his e-mail.
If you ask someone brighter than yourself what that means they'll tell you it stands for Britian. UK= Britian
I'm sorry if I sound condecending to you but you have to learn these things or else you could go round giving morons a bad name.
Maybe you knew he was born of a woman and knew he lived in England but didn't know where other than that he came from.

My, my, and you don't find this little tirade insulting? For the record, I didn't bother to check that makes me lazy not stupid. It also means that I did not want to assume that where he is, is necessarlly where he is from. In the midst of conversation I thought it would be easier to ask, I thought AJ might also have provided more information as to the hows and whys of where he lives and or is from currently made him so bigoted.

I hope this clears it up for you, and thanks for the kind words.

As for the 'fucking nitwits' and the 'shut the fuck ups' they don't sum anything up but you.

No, they actually point out my opinion of you. You may think THAT says something about me (and you are so entitled)but the words themselves were merely commentary.

They are hollow generic expressions containing nothing but anger and intolerance.

Much like the statement, "I don't just hate all Americans because.."

I think this sums up the comments of you and AJ quite nicely although I believe this particular comment belongs to AJ.
You guys don't sound like you are ready to hold hands and sing Kumbiya.

And in my opinion it is YOU who are using the tragic death of innocents who were collectively part of a pluralistic society to vent your narrow minded intolerent spleen.
You certainly don't defend them and in even attempting to betray your immaturity.
You neither represent them or the 100% of the people you state agree with your opinions.
You are simply an inarticulate shallow little nonentity bellowing selfishly over the graves of people who would be embarrassed to have you hijack their deaths for your own pathetic ends.

Well at least you were kind enough to qualify this as your opinion. You are certainly entitled, but considering my opinion of you, your opinion of me won't be keeping me up nights.

I am not the one who came to this thread and decided to use it as an anti American hate fest.

The good news is, because you are not American, you don't get a vote.

Now, this is the last time I will respond to a post that is nothing but a personal attack on me. If you would like to start a huge ugly personal pissing contest with me please do it by email.

If you would like to continue to insult me I kindly request you also comment on my arguments, on my end I promise not to use the "ef" word in my descriptions of you and your buddy because they obviously offend your delicate sensibilities.

I also humbly apologize for that. I speak that way often in casual conversation as do many of my friends. The words were not meant so much to offend as they were to emphasis my point. I'm sure this deficiency of table manners is a product of my lack of proper education and poor breeding.

Regards,

Dan-

[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-16-2001).]

Jim

10-16-01, 09:32 AM

OK guys, what was once debate has turned into a flame. Let's remember what the debate is all about and stick to it...

This goes for everyone.

I'm tempted to close this thread and start a fresh one back on topic.

Anyone else care to comment???

Jim

martin ewen

10-16-01, 10:45 AM

Jeez I've got to give him one thing, that dannys a tenatious little fuck.
I won't get drawn into a pissing contest again, my bladders empty.
I'll preface all my further posts by 'in my opinion' and refrain from exploiting what I percieve to be weaknesses in others.

I can be outragiously glib and see how that could be offensive to some but also this topic is primarily about 4/5000 dead people and how their deaths can be honoured by some kind of progression in the way we think and act.
We could identify the bad guys, which has been done, they've already sent videos going, 'we're over here' and it will be just a matter of time before they are found and excecuted. Innocent people have and will die as a consequence.
How do we stop it happening again?
Do we have to feed the whole world so it doesn't get hungry and start looking at our full plates and muttering?
Is it just bad luck that some countrys have been at one war or another for 20 years with a life expectancy of just over 40 and only 30% able to even read.
Do people hate the western world because they are hungry and ignorant and easy to manipulate?
How much of the western world is well fed but still ignorant and easy to manipulate?
How do you define ignorant?
Since the roman times its been a rule of thumb that to control any mass of people, a country, a city, a stadium, 10% of that mass must be diciplined and armed.
Is whats happening now just the numbers rearranging themselves to get back to that comfortable ratio?
The romans were very inclusive of other cultures, they got too diverse and cumbersome and imploded from within.
I really have no idea.
but I retain the right to question the ideas of others.

I have to go make strangers laugh and earn a living now.

[This message has been edited by martin ewen (edited 10-16-2001).]

Danny Hustle

10-16-01, 01:08 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by martin ewen:
Jeez I've got to give him one thing, that dannys a tenatious little fuck.

And I'm cute too.

I won't get drawn into a pissing contest again, my bladders empty.

Mine is void as well. Not to mention that awful burning sensation.

Everything else aside, you raise some great questions in this post.

The downside is what the hell are the answers?

I don't have any answers either, but I do agree that blaming one country over another doesn't solve much. It may put a band-aid on things. But, eventually someone is going to come along and give the pot a good stir. It is how most humans are wired. that's my opinion anyway.

It seems to me the human race as a tribe is a warring bunch from the get go. I think most of us are absorbed in our own piece of the world (and that which we would like to covet)and not the bigger picture. I don't know if that is good or bad, right or wrong.

I do think it will take something a lot bigger than any one country or group of people to make it change for the better. Because those who are trying to change do not know the outcome of their actions either, they only know they don't like the way things are now. We all seem to have an opinion on what we think is best. When the truth is, no one really knows. Although, I will admit doing something is better than doing nothing.

We all like to picture Utopia, I don't think it can exist, well, not here on earth anyway.

That's my 2 cents.

Regards,

Dan-

[This message has been edited by Danny Hustle (edited 10-16-2001).]