contract line item

[le pire]

I just got a contract today that had this in it:

Performer shall:

B: Provide entertainment based upon performers own original material and shall not adopt, borrow, or use in any way the material of any other entertainer.

This clause should be in every contract -- starting with Buskers Festivals!


etienne

[Evan Young]

I saw you use the cheek kiss gag at the motion fest video shoot!
kind of sucks because sometimes it's hard to know what's really fair game stock versus what Jim wrote a few years back before you were a performer.

* I agree

[Evan Young]

Originally posted by Evan Young
I saw you use the cheek kiss gag at the motion fest video shoot!

*You did change it in a clever way, and I laughed my ass off.

[jester]

What? You mean I'm not the only juggler who does the cheek kiss gag? Wow!

I seem to be the only one that doesn't do the "Here is an englishman juggling, here is an Australian Juggling, Here is an Irish/Polish/Mexican Juggling.

I agree entirely. There are some jokes which are quite simply public domain, and I think the odd gag is acceptable, but I have seen people copy entire routines from other performers.... Yeuck.

[Stephon]

So, Steve, were they upset that you couldn't accept the contract?

:p

[le pire]

I REALLY want to same something snarky here that could get me into a lot of trouble. Must... hold... back... urge... to... be... snarky...

etienne

[Rachel Peters]

oh, common now. Nobody's going to believe that you REALLY had something snarky to say if you "hold back".
common. common common common.

(side note: I, personally, very much dislike the cheek kiss gag. But that's just me sayin'.)

[Rachel Peters]

Originally posted by Stephon
So, Steve, were they upset that you couldn't accept the contract?

:p

Budump bump. Thank you! He's here all week! He recommends you try the veal!

[jester]

Originally posted by Rachel Peters
I, personally, very much dislike the cheek kiss gag.

So it's YOU that called the police!

[Rachel Peters]

Probably. ...I do that so often, I just can't remember anymore.

and PS: Maybe I just mostly dislike being victom to the cheek kiss gag. If other women are fine with it, it's no skin off my back.

[gav]

yeah but it's not like you can ask them first is it.
i know from experience that people will go with something at the time, but later feel not so good about it. even to the point of complaining, if they can think of someone to complain to.

[fettucinibrother]

Originally posted by jester
So it's YOU that called the police!

I know that this thread started as "contract line item", but as it has taken on this "cheek kissing gag" subject. I have to chime in with a little side note on that gag. A performer from the NC area, a former Ringling Clown College Grad, actually had sexual harassment charges bought up on him for doing that gag. Of course, he being "not the brightest bulb in the bunch", did the gag on a teenage girl with her father right there. As I did not actually witness it first hand, I do not know the exact specific details of it all. When he told me the story it seemed a little strange and a little hard to believe. However, if you knew this guy, as I do, it might make more sense. He has terrible luck, it seems. But it just goes to show you that one needs to be careful in todays litigious environment (at least in the US, anyway). If you're gonne do that gag, choose your victim carefully. Not sure how it all played out in the end. But I know that he stopped performing as a result of it.
Alfredo Fettucini

[Rachel Peters]

The thing about being a volunteer for something like that is that if I don't do it -- if I don't play along (to whatever the joke is), I come out looking like the jerk. So, of course I'm going to go along with it, right? Just makes a person resentful in the end. The joke itself is funny enough to watch (if you happen to have never seen it before), but the volunteer has no choice but to play along or they've spoiled everyone else's fun.
I have had it attempted on me and luckily there wasn't really a crowd, because I politely whispered to him, "I know that one." and I walked away. ...But I know I looked like a stuck-up spoil sport for having done that.
I get a little tense and anxious when I see an unknown performer with child volunteers for that reason. The parent and the child have put a lot of trust in that performer, and a child -especially- is bound to go along with a gag that a popular adult has told him to go along with, with Mom and Dad and an entire crowd looking on, smiling.
There's one act I've seen too many times which involves child volunteers and it makes me pretty angry. I can't watch this dude perform anymore, because it's a staple part of his act. ...And I don't think any kid would come out of it feeling too great about it. I'll avoid naming names. Nice guy, but I feel he breaks that parent/performer trust.
There's just a lot of responsibility on you people. Always be conscious of that!!

[jester]

At my old school (Larkhill) the teacher I did the cheek kiss gag on was mortified. I felt very very bad for her, and while her colleagues claim she was a prude, I feel I violated her trust. That said many people have refused to kiss me and I think that is funnier and it makes the girl look really cool as long as I react in the correct way.

I now use a completely different gag that involves a kiss, but in this one the victim sees it coming and I have a get out if I sense any kind of reluctance at all.

I think with Sars, Bird Flu and Herpes, the cheek kiss gag belongs on this forum and not in our act.

[pixiejester]

Originally posted by jester
the cheek kiss gag belongs on this forum and not in our act.

I agree with that, like what Rachel said, I do not like it either.

[Rachel Peters]

Yes. This is just my assumption (because I haven't asked every woman), but I have a feeling that -prude or not- far more women feel slightly violated by that gag than they let on. They play along because they don't want to ruin the party.
Sub-sub-topic for a feature length documentary, perhaps??
Getting back closer to the forum thread though, Etienne's twist on it is cute one.

-rp

[le pire]

Hey Alfredo,

Yeah I remember seeing JoJo the clown talk about the charges brought up on him. He picked a 12-14 year old girl in a shopping mall who was with other 12-14 year old girls. And he was in full clown make up. Way to go Bozo. Jojo, or whatever. Dirty clowns.

"The Kiss" gag, like many pieces of comic material is a risky bit and as perfomers we have to pick and choose our material to make it appropriate for the audience that we are actually in front of.

One of the Ringling guys, EZ, or Tuba or Toto, I can't remember which, told about how he uses the "kiss" bit if and when he does it. First, he picks an old woman, who is with other old women. Never an old woman who is with her kids or grand kids, because then she is a MATRON and must be respected. When she is with her peers it's different.

(side note: I used to be a waiter in a restaurant in Paris that catered to British tour buses. When ever their was a group of grannies, they all grabbed my ass when ever I passed by. Old British women, when all together and in a foreign country have to be the randiest group of people on the planet.)

Also, by using an old woman, he is breaking a social taboo that says older women are unattractive. If he feels the SLIGHTEST unwillingness on the part of the volunteer or senses that the audience would consider him a pervert - he doest not do the gag. That's the important part -- having the experience and sensitivity to know your audience and where THEY draw the line.

Rachel draws lines for a living... hmmmmm...


etienne

[Rachel Peters]

Thanks. I fully concur. Perception is the hugest of assets --nay, prerequisites.



Originally posted by le pire


Rachel draws lines for a living... hmmmmm...


etienne


Yeah. I suppose it just comes naturally to me.

[fettucinibrother]

Hey Etienne,
Great points you bring up. Especially the last sentence of the last paragraph. That pretty much sums it up.
Ah yes, so "Just Joey" (Bozo, Jojo , whatever...very funny) must have taken the story on the Ringling CC grads list. There are probably a number of you folks out here that are on that list. In which case, you probably know more about the story than I. Yes, Dirty Clowns...
Funny you should also mention EZ (or Toto or Tuba...very funny) in the same post. I just worked with him yesterday at an NBA game. I got him a gig here in Charlotte, doing pre-game entertainment at the Bobcats game, as a balloon folder (or as we call it, torquing rubber).
Ciao for now,
Alfredo

[Stephon]

If I may play devil's advocate for a moment-

I've seen the gag used many times, and I've used it myself a couple. Not once have I seen a performer assault the volunteer; no groping, no tongue, no open mouth.

We are talking about a chaste peck on the lips!

How is this a "violation"? At worst, it's an "ok, you got me".

Is it really that much more significant than a kiss on the cheek? Is it because the volunteer has entered into a "contract", but then the agreement is broken? If that's the case, about 80% of people who volunteer for any act would have grounds for complaint.

Obviously, no thinking person would pull it on a child. But I hardly think it qualifies (with an adult) as sexual harrassment.

Ok, let me have it.

[Rachel Peters]

Now, I'm not all up in arms about this gag -- I hope you haven't read me like that.
I'll be the... um... angel's advocate.
I was thinking along those lines too before -- that it's no big deal, it's just a peck on the lips -- but though it's small, I do think it is still a bit of a violation. Take it out of the performance context and picture someone just randomly running up to me on the street and giving me an unexpected peck on the lips? That would never be acceptable.
Granted, the volunteer has agreed to give him a casual kiss on the cheek, but take it out of the performance context again, and picture someone agreeing to, say, shake a stranger's hand, and then the stranger comes at her with a kiss.
Yes, it's sort of a breach of contract. It's something stolen.
Something more important -- and generally considered more intimate -- than a shake of the hand, or a pat on the shoulder, or even a kiss on the cheek.
I remember when I was a kid, there was an old man who always insisted that I hug him. I would put out my hand to shake his hand, and he would completely ignore it, push past my arm, and hug me. I felt very violated. But it was no big deal, right? It was just an innocent hug. I had a prof in college who would do the same. I was an adult, but I still felt very, very icky. ...But it's just a simple hug! I suppose I ahd the choice to say, "screw you!" to him and walk away, but there are so many in-the-moment factors when you're on the spot like that... I would find myself cringing, putting on a smile, and going on my way... feeling like an idiot for not having done anything. But the fact that I didn't do anything doesn't change the how inappropriate his actions were.
What may be no big deal to the performer may be a huge deal to the volunteer. You just don't know where they've come from or what a peck on the lips may mean to them. The simple fact that they're an adult doesn't mean much to me.
Not everyone is so casual. I don't go kissing my friends on the lips... I'm not going to kiss a stranger, if I can help it.
That's all. And I'm not sure that's something you can perceive with good street intuition. How could you tell something like that?

ok. so let ME have it. :)

-rp

[Evan Young]

I use my girlfreind as a planted volounteer when I can, and I use the gag with her, but only when the show is going well. I've never used it on anyone else.

Etienne's presentation of the joke is really funny because he tells her about the gag twice before he does it. Makes a joke about dirty clowns and stuff. It's really good character stuff, and when she falls for it the third time it's just such a killer pay off. He told me that he doesn't allways use the gag for various reasons that are mostly decided on the fly.

I have felt in the past like I've ruined a couple's first date by flirting real hard with my volounteer. It sucks because if they are a secure couple there is a lot of really great interaction you can explore in front of the audience, but if they arn't it just ruins their date. So there is a judgement call you have to make while you are on the spot.... I've come up with some systems for volonteer selection, but they aren't fool proof. Using a planted volounteer is the best system I've come up with, but she isn't allways there. Sometimes I just pick a guy and have a different interaction with him, but it doesn't build my character as much.

Soo, whatever. I don't think this has really added anything; but I do get the impression that some performers try to be sensitive to individuals and audiences, and some performers just try to do the show they want to do every time.

[le pire]

I remember at a Motionfest a loooooong time ago, David Smith did a whip routine and he had Marianne (from the Jokesters) as his volunteer. I really enjoyed his act and he put original jokes and character into a stock premise (whipping a target out of a volunteers hand).

On of his gags was that for a "blindfold" he placed a paper bag over Marianne's head and drew a smiley face on it. It got a nice laugh and Marianne (being a performer herself) played it up and also got a fews laughs herself.

All in all, I thought it was well done and he made the bit his own. Then came the evaluations...

Several of the women in the audiece pounded Dave for his insensitivity towards women for placing a bag over his volunteers head. Accused him of doing the Taliban's work for them (think burka) and brought up all sorts of politics that frankly I didn't get from the act at all.

My feeling was "this is a MotionFest crowd" and they were going to be a LOT more sensitive to this kind of thing then, say, a comedy club crowd.

It was a funny bit, and I hope he didn't scrap it all together. But the lesson to be learned there is the same as "the kiss" gag. Know thy audience.

You're right Stephon, it's just a peck on the lips. And all Dave did was make his volunteer wear a mask (there was a smiley face drawn on the bag)... but that's not what people perceived.

Perception is reality.


etienne

[Rachel Peters]

Etienne,
But unlike the kiss gag, he knew that Marianne was ok with this paper bag joke, right?

I don't care what the REST of the audience thinks about the kiss, I care about what the volunteer who gets it thinks.

-rp

[le pire]

Originally posted by Rachel Peters
Take it out of the performance context and picture someone just randomly running up to me on the street and giving me an unexpected peck on the lips? That would never be acceptable.



That is EXACTLY why it is acceptable on stage. Comedy and theatre is the place to break social taboos and customs. Most of what you find funny on stage or screen is something that flys in the face of convention.

No risk, no reward.

You are comparing your experiences with REAL LIFE icky men to a comedian (a different kind of icky man) doing a gag about something every 5 year old kid finds icky (kissing).

I'm not saying you're wrong. As a performer it is up to me to recognize this. That doesn't mean I not going to take risks in that show, because I am. I'll just take different risks.


But unlike the kiss gag, he knew that Marianne was ok with this paper bag joke, right?

She was not a plant, and did not know ahead of time about the gag. She went along with it on stage and played it up. I don't remember if she said anything afterward, but she may have because once the first woman said "I was offended" it became "Hey! He's a mysogenist! Dog pile on Dave!" and he just got pounded. It was like "pack mentality."

I don't care what the REST of the audience thinks about the kiss, I care about what the volunteer who gets it thinks.

I care about both.



etienne

[Rachel Peters]

I'm not saying you're wrong. As a performer it is up to me to recognize this. That doesn't mean I not going to take risks in that show, because I am. I'll just take different risks.

----------------------------

Alright. I think that your volunteer's okay-ness with the kiss gag is a hard one to recognize. But kudos to you if you can pick up on it.
...just please don't take that particular risk on me.

(And the social taboos that are entertaining in theatre and screen -- they're practiced and agreed upon by the participants.)

----------------------------


I don't care what the REST of the audience thinks about the kiss, I care about what the volunteer who gets it thinks.

I care about both.

----------------------

After I wrote that I realized the same. Yes.

It's not something I'll argue till I'm blue in the face or anthing. I don't want to pick this little gag as a battle to fight. Just laying out my reasons for not liking it, and explaining why I WILL refuse if I have it attempted on me. ....smiling and politely, but I will.
I do think that a lot of women don't like it.

[le pire]

Originally posted by Rachel Peters
And I'm not sure that's something you can perceive with good street intuition.

Years of experience and careful study of body language and are the tools I use.

etienne

[le pire]

Let me know the next time you're having one of your parties where people do what's taboo.

I have this great gag...


:)


etienne

[Rachel Peters]

HA ha! ...i was just thinking about that. THAT may be ONE acceptable time, because I'm prepared for crazy. But just expect me pull out my own socially taboo gags in response. :) :)

...and as if I would ever -from this point on- agree to kiss any comedian on the cheek!!

(and take in mind that I'm smiling as I type this... it's not AS big a deal to me as it's come out sounding.)

[scot]

rachel;
when is the last time you've contributed to a thread?

[jester]

Originally posted by Stephon
Is it really that much more significant than a kiss on the cheek?

Would you kiss a cheek that was wet with slobber?

I personally think that if volunteer is happy to kiss your cheek they are probably not going to be upset by a peck.

I don't actually touch lips during the gag myself. One wet kiss a long time ago upset me very very much.

[Rachel Peters]

Originally posted by jester
I personally think that if volunteer is happy to kiss your cheek they are probably not going to be upset by a peck.

Maybe you're right.
I do believe that you guys have the people skills to determine a volunteer's willingness. But there are probably just as many out there who don't have those skills and still do the gag. ...alsdjfl;sj.
(Because the folks who don't have those people skills usually don't realize that they don't have them. ...unless they've been diagnosed with Asperger's Disease or something.)

[le pire]

Jester,

First you wrote:

Originally posted by jester
I think with Sars, Bird Flu and Herpes, the cheek kiss gag belongs on this forum and not in our act.


Where the hell are you performing these days?!!?? Butlins?

Originally posted by jester
Would you kiss a cheek that was wet with slobber?


Ok, and WHAT the hell are you performing? I admit I can get a bit sweatty, but never SLOBBER.


One wet kiss a long time ago upset me very very much.

Yeah... ummm I'm not even going to touch that one.


etienne

[Rachel Peters]

I'm back to retract some comments I made about the cheek kiss gag.
After having thought about it, I don't think I'd walk away or refuse to participate... I think I'd I'd play along, but try my best to take it in a different direction.
There are a lot of possibilities.

challenge.

[jester]

Because of this thread I have been experimenting with the cheek kiss gag and not actually touching their lips. The idea of it and missing by a mile works just as well.

But last week a 17 year old girl obviously saw it coming and said "On your knees and I'll kiss you."

So I knelt down on one knee, and she bent over to kiss my cheek, and as I turned my head, she turned her whole body and I almost kissed her butt.

There were a lot of mildly shocked grown ups but the 8,9,10 and 11 year olds loved it...

So I'm glad I'm aiming to miss at the moment.

[Stephon]

. . .about why, after all the discussion about not pulling this gag with underage girls, you decided to go for it?

[Evan Young]

i was wondering the same thing

[Kenny Ahern]

A buddy of mine was working a fair in Kansas and did the "Kiss my cheek?" bit with the Queen of the Fair. She was 16 yrs old, but looked over 18. By the end of the day he had been chewed out by the Queen's parents(for stealing their daughters first kiss), reprimanded by the Fair board and threatened with a lawsuit and arrest for sexual misconduct with a minor.

It was not a good day and he never did the bit again.

Kenny Ahern

[le pire]

I do some variations on this gag, but there are some general rules:

1) NEVER do the kiss gag at a showcase.

2) If she looks less than 25, DON'T DO IT.

3) If she is reasonably modest, don't do it (pick a dirty ho, for cryin out loud!)

4) If she is a mom there with her kids, don't do it.

5) If she is there with her boyfriend who looks like a thug, don't do it.

... I could go on, and I should go on, but I'm tired because I did four shows today. This is the thing- the kiss gag is a little bit of extra icing to a routine and NOT THE ROUTINE ITSELF. If you have the opportunity to use it, than OK. But there are many many prohibitions to this one and if you are not aware of them then you may just totally screw yourself.


etienne

[Evan Young]

It's the performers job to make the volounteer look good. Isn't that the first rule of using volounteers? It does look as if Jester acomplished that with this case (she pulled a gag on him), but I seriously question the choice of targets to begin with.

If we picked Rachel as our volounteer, not knowing her or her past, just that she's a fun looking gal and probably a good sport; I'll bet some of us would be able to pick up on the fact that she wouldn't be an acceptable target for the kiss the cheeck gag, and I'll bet some of those people might try it anyway because when it works it gets the strongest laugh in their show...

[Rachel Peters]

see... I'm just not so sure you'd pick up on that with someone like me. My whole innitial frustration with the gag was because I would want to play along and not ruine the party. I do want to be a good sport. And being a bit of a show-off, I might have played along well enough to fake that I'm having fun, just in order to not ruin your show.
And as we go in circles here, I agree again that it's totally a individual thing.
I mean, someone once (jokingly) accused me of having "intimacy issues" because of this very thing -- my dislike of the cheek kiss gag -- yet, at the same time, I find it absolutely hilarious to grab people's butts for shock value (not in shows. just friends and enemies), and am pretty comfortable with it, myself. I don't know what my problem is. ...but see... a nice, conservative girl like me... you would never pick up on something like that . Because it's just weird.
And like you said, some of you might be able to read these things. ... but more than those some would attempt the gag. A lot of people who can't pick up on this stuff think that they can. So it turns into a bit of a gamble, from performer to performer.
But now I'm totally repeating my previous posts.
I sure am using a lot of italics today.

(I think there should be butt-grabbing in a variation of this gag! Let's see how many harassment suits come outta that!!)

[Evan Young]

hold their head by the jaw and back of the head so that if they start to move you can stop them.

point to where they want you to kiss them and ask "there?" in a conformation manner. Then act like you are about to hit that target with a big spit ball.

blow a kiss.

kiss your hand and press it to their cheek (slap)

stick your toung out while you do it.

do what jester's volounteer did, (that's a clever move).



None of these things will ruin the show or make you look like a poor sport if you continue to have fun.

[Rachel Peters]

exactly. That's the only reason I posted on this thread again -- to voice the challenge of becoming a volunteer who might take it in a slightly different direction -- like Jester's experience. Smart 17 year old.
I may have a few surprises up my sleeve... or pant leg. whatever.
I'll keep them to myself for now, in case I run across any of you and happen to find myself become a volunteer. mwahahaha....
Who knows, there may be butt-grabbing involved. :)

[jester]

Originally posted by Stephon
. . .about why, after all the discussion about not pulling this gag with underage girls, you decided to go for it?

Because 17 is not underage in Europe, I had no intention of kissing her on the lips, it seemed like a good idea at the time, a kiss is not regarded as sexual activity in most civilised communities - it has many comic possibilities, because acknowledging that a 17 year old is beautiful is not quite the same thing as pedophilia, because the idea of a bearded middle age man wanting a kiss from a young lady is hilarious in itself, beause you are far less likely to be sued here than in the Uptight Sanctimonies of America, because I didn't think there was much danger of her becoming corrupted, there was not danger of a shotgun wedding, because I quite rightly judged her mentally competent to deal with the gag, because her parents found it funny too...

Funnily enough there were no police proceedings after that particular show...

Oh, and I think what she did was actually very witty and it worked very well.

[Stephon]

Originally posted by jester
Because 17 is not underage in Europe, I had no intention of kissing her on the lips, it seemed like a good idea at the time-- waitwaitwait. go back. 17 is legal in Europe?!?

I mean--ah, I see.

[le pire]

In my experience, Americans are FAR more prudish than the English with what you can get a way with onstage, as a variety performer. And Jester is right, 17 is not underage. When I was performing in Wales, I had a father (literally) pushing his 16 year old daughter at me.

etienne

p.s. England is not Europe.

[gav]

Originally posted by Stephon
waitwaitwait. go back. 17 is legal in Europe?!?

I mean--ah, I see.

In Finland it's 16 !!!!!!
and here in Croatia it's 14 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, that's not why I'm here.

[Rachel Peters]

And in Ethiopia a lot of girls are married to 40 year old men and pregnant by 13!!!!!!!

[jester]

Just because it is legal - it doesn't make it right! The age of consent varies throughout the world, which is why some places attract a lot of sex tourism..

[Rachel Peters]

agreed. that's what I meant to get at. as vague as I was.

...which, however, may damage one of your defenses that your cheek/butt kiss girl was of a legal age in your country.

(Hey, Etienne -- this thread sure did evolve plenty from what you originally posted, eh?)

[Stephon]

Originally posted by jester
Just because it is legal - it doesn't make it right!Only in the eyes of the law.

[le pire]

Originally posted by Rachel Peters
(Hey, Etienne -- this thread sure did evolve plenty from what you originally posted, eh?)

Yeah, no kidding. But to be honest I think this has been a great thread because it has hit on so many levels:

-Even though Scot says you don't contribute, I have appreciated your perspective of an audience member / busker fanatic / prude.

-There has been discussion on audience perceptions, and making your show appropriate to that.

-"Stock" material and coming up with ways to make it your own (like Jester turning the his butt to face the girls lips)

-A stupid clown who was prosecuted for the kiss gag

-14 is legal in Croatia

-etc. etc. etc.

This is what P.net is about (I think).


etienne

[Rachel Peters]

I'm adding that to my resume.

"audience member / busker fanatic / prude."


...but remember -- I do grab butts. Quite often. So I'm only prudish about kisses.

[jester]

I HATE having my butt grabbed, especially by drunk women out on a hen night.

Back to the kiss cheek gag, I was once Betty in "Cloud 9"and I had to kiss an actress, who one night stuck her toungue in my mouth and decided to go for it. I was almost sick.

If somebody feels the same way about lips as I do about tongue then I am not going to inflict my lips upon any poor unsuspecting person, regardless of their age....