Help me start glass walking/bed of nails etc

[The Had Matter]

Well - I'm trying to start on this sort of thing.
I know the theory but as yet have not tried any of this stuff - I've been thinking about lying/walking on broken glass, sword swallowing, perhaps even the human pin cushion if i'm feeling brave oh and of course escapes.
the escapes I've got covered - it's the rest I'm stuck on.

Has anyone got any golden pearls of wisdom (tips) for me please? - Frack? - Dr Eric?

Many thanks

The Had Matter

[Pyromancer]

Ok, you know the theory, here's some more, which youmay already know...

Prepare your glass for the show, remove the small splinters, etc. Then you can smash one bottle during the show, and remove the top and bottom part of the bottle - which you can show to your audience, so they can make sure it's real glass. The bottle should be round, without a label and preferrably dry on the inside. (Otherwise, the glass will stick to your feet or back)

(But please note, I'm not very experienced in this myself yet, but haven't hurt myself badly until so far... knock, knock)

[HiveQueen]

This may just be me, but I find lying on a bed of nails for about fifteen minutes does wonders for hangovers or sleep-deprivation nausea. Just make sure you get on very carefully, and it helps to have something under your head, which doesn't distribute easily. The one I used had nails spaced about an inch and a half apart, I think, belonged to my school's physics department (they'd have a student lie on it and then drop an apple next to his head from 4 feet up- the apple would be completely impaled)... Just make certain the nails are not needle sharp and (more importantly) that they're all the same height.

Another thought which may be incorrect; isn't broken windshield glass supposed to be fairly non-sharp (so as to avoid piercing the tires of every car that comes by after an accident and killing a hundred people instead of just two or three)? Not sure where you live, but it shouldn't be that hard to find the scene of an accident or a car break-in; or find yourself a salvaged old craked windshield and smash it up yourself. Plus it's pretty.

Glass sticking to your feet issue- if it's warm & you're sweating, gymnast's chalk?? Or talcum powder? You could always powder a small hand towel or something before and then just stand on it for a second before doing your walk, so they don't think you've got some powdered kevlar cheat going.

Time for breakfast.

[Doctor Eric]

Just do it... That's how we all learn. As far as all that 'theory' you've heard about, it's B.S. You will get hurt, and you will get hurt, and then you won't, it's that simple. Of course all of this info pertains to glass walking, if you want to learn how to swallow swords, I would suggest finding one of these older more experienced folks around here to teach you (shouldn't be that hard), in the past 2 years, three good friends of mine have screwed their throats up pretty bad due to rushing the process. None of them can swallow swords anymore. So team up with somebody for that one.

When you actually get to presenting this stuff, remember that all that supposed theory you know is something that alot of your 'smarter' spectators will be armed with. Not only do they have these wierd explanations, they are also dead wrong. Getting around people's know it all attitude is probably the most challenging.

Here's another tip, if you are walking on glass alot, and getting the occasional cut/scrape/@#!$%@?ing piece of glass stuck in your foot, use garlic to disinfect it. If you have a painful or infection-red spot on your feet, cut a clove of garlic in half, so that you have a good sized chunk with it's juicy insides exposed, and tape it to your wound for a couple of hours, the garlic will suck out infections, and it works better and quicker than any over the counter stuff.

Hope that helps, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, come find me, I'll go through it all with you.

[firegirl]

dr. e ~ do you or any in your troupe do the sword swallow? i've been thinking of adding it to my show - thom gave me this 'thing-a-majiggy' that he says you're supposed to start practicing with - but, other than that hasn't been of much use in training to do it...

just curious...
~firegirl

[HiveQueen]

[quote]Originally posted by firegirl:
<strong>...sword swallow?...thom gave me this 'thing-a-majiggy' that he says you're supposed to start practicing with...

~firegirl</strong><hr></blockquote>

Now *there's* one for the 'Pick Up Lines' thread.

[The Had Matter]

Thank you for the tips - I'm off to buy some garlic. I like the idea of using windsheild glass though. Thanks for the advice Eric - I'll hold off the swallowing for a bit - If I ever get there I'd love to take you up on the offer of talking shop for a bit.
I think I'm gonna give it a go soon - I let you know how I get on.

I've just been working out a walking on sword routine too - using the live edge like a tightrope on the principle that if you place rather than slide your foot it won't cut. Our Bujinkan sensei does trick like that on his kneck!
If I ever try that one you'll be the first to know.

- Would it be worth using stage glass to break instead of an actual bottle? It'd look good without cutting? - Neil - any Ideas where I can get some?

Thanks

[Todd]

Ok, here is the best advice I've ever gotten on the whole walking on glass thing.
(Pyros advice dovetails very well with this)
I got it form Jerry "Ras Poppa" who has been a sideshow,whip,vaudeville guy for longer than most of us have been around. Smash a bunch of bottles in a containment unit of some kind. About 2 to 3 feet wide and 4 to 6 feet long
(use 2x4's for the sides)
, but make sure it is metal or has a metal bottom. Build it out of wood, and then put an aluminum or sheet metal floor in it.
Ok, so smash your bottles
(the ones Pyro suggested)
take out the bottoms and cover the surface of the floor of your "glass walk" contaner, then
(here is the key to the whole thing)
drive around with it in the back of your truck, trunk, car seat for about 2 to 3 weeks so that the glass rattles around in it and the motion of the moving wears down most of the pieces of glass in your "glass contaner". The glass in the contaner is not very sharp and at the top of the act you make a big deal about smashing one or two bottles and putting them in your "glass contaner".
(taking the bottoms out)
You can paint/decorate the "glass contaner" and make it look show-worthy.
As for the stepping on the glass, lift the foot and set it straight down as you walk, DONT DRAG THE FOOT OR BE CASUAL IN ANY WAY ABOUT STEPPING. Lift and set lift and set.
The rest is just showmanship.
Its like the bed of nails, its all in how you do it not what you do.
Someone once wrote me and asked me how the Bed of Nails works.
(I do it in my show)
You build it lay on it and physiscs takes over. It's totally a "Dog-and-Pony Show", but its up to you to fill it and make it entertaining.

Onward
Todd

[Stephon]

I'm pretty sure that using stage glass would be a problem--for one thing, it's rather expensive, so one bottle per show over the course of a season would really add up. Also, if you are using sugar glass (although I understand most stage glass is made of a resin these days), you'll run into problems with it melting in the heat, and if you step on the sugar glass you'll make the bottoms of your feet all sticky; then on to the real glass. . .

(Hey, Todd--I sent you ande-mail on a similar topic. Did you get it?)

[Doctor Eric]

Here to chime in again...
IN MY OPINION...
(I capitalize that because I'm going to say some things that might torque some people, these are merely my opinions, take them as you will) Todd's post is a bunch of hooey. If you can't heat, get out of the kitchen, because none of that stuff is necessary. The act, in and of itself, is an act of faith, if you have no faith, don't do it. I do my act with fresh bottles, and I do some of the most dangerous stunts you can do on a pile of glass. Take it or leave it, I think there is no reason to make a "trick" out of this, as there is more behind it than that. If you want to challenge yourself, and do dangerous stunts, then you are going to have to learn to live with a few scrapes (which is mostly what happens at first). I've seen alot of torture acts, I have seen beds of nails more comfortable than my futon, and I have seen beds that are truly an act of superhuman will to lay on. In my opinion, if you want to do tricks, buy some cards or some coins.
And Todd, I mean no offense, I know that you come from a different school of thought, I figured I would talk from the other side of the fence.
And using windshield glass will not work really, it is actually safety glass, made to break into tiny cubes that won't hurt you. Abroken pile of it looks more like a pile of dirty diamonds (A neat effect in and of itself), than broken glass.

Cheers,

[Pyromancer]

I agree with Eric here. Nothing can beat the real thing. And though I haven't much experience yet, I know it's possible with real glass. Friends of mine have been doing this one for many, many times, even with their faces flat in the glass bed, without seriously wounding themselves - note the word *seriously*!
The advantage of breaking your glass on stage is, that doing so, will prevent the audience from thinking there is some trick behind it: they can see with their very own eyes that you are working with the real thing. Hollywooded as we all are nowadays, people easily start thinking it's just some kind of special effect. The big attraction for me of this kind of performances, is that it is all so damn real!
And if you really want to prepare your glass: instead of having it in a box in your car, boil it for a couple of hours in a big bowl of water. And forget about the windshield glass. Most people know that stuff is called 'safety glass' for a reason. As a little kid I used to wonder why this glass wasn't sharp at all...

[The Had Matter]

Ok - well I was thinking of using a stone polisher to take the worst edges off - but if it's possible to do without that then I might try it with un-doctored glass. I have to agree with pyro on this one - hollywood has made us very sceptical when it comes to impressive feats.

Eric - I've just had a look at the website - very cool. That's more of a pile of glass than just a tray - impressive. Is it possible to do this without the tray - just put a sack down, pile up some glass and go or do you think the glass would be too unstable without the sides of the container there?

On the subject of nail beds - I want to build up to the 4 nail bed. (I saw someone doing this a while ago, it's got to hurt) - I think it'd look good and I don't mind the discomfort.

A bed of nails as home furnature - good Idea smile.gif

[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: The Had Matter ]</p>

[Todd]

Ok Eric, first off if you dont mean to offend, then a little lesson in net kindness, dont start off your post with "bunch of hooey".

Sure you take hurts etc, in doing danger stunts, but personally the "super human" theory is total garbage.The act of faith theory is also garbage. There is nothing super human about being able to do any of thse tricks. Any dope can learn them in less than a half an hour in thier living rooms if they put thier minds to it. I was simply putting forth a theory that will allow you as a perfomer to be able to do the act and entertain and audience for many shows, with out having to tap into your "super-human" ablity to walk on glass.
Also, the audience doesnt know if you are really doing it or not. And they dont care either, they only care if the y "think" it is real. Jugglers work for hours, months, years, on doing difficult tricks, so that when the do them in a show so that the risk of failure is very low, but they "act" like the risk is high. Magic is total smoke and mirrors, totaly fake, there is no magic hapening, but the really good performers of magic tricks, are able to get audiences to suspend thier disbeilef and buy in-to the magical world that they are trying to create. It is not the trick, or the difficulty therein, but the ablity of the perfomer to sell the trick to the audience.
I can do the 4 nail bed of nails, but I dont, because to the audience it doesnt matter. To them, a bed of nails (any bed of nails) is a danger object, especally if the performer sells it as such.
There is nothing wrong with doing it the "real" way as you set forth, but in my humble opinion, that drive to "make it real" can get in the way of a novice performer creating an act. The audience cant tell the diffrence. My friend Johnny Fox can swallow a 14 to 17 sword-sandwitch, but he doesnt, because (in his own words) it is a tough trick and in the end doing one sword is just as impressive as doing 20. He saves that and the neon tube for special occasions. The biggest and best example of a trick that is all smoke and mirrors, but when it is sold right it really works, and that is the Bullet catch. Penn and Teller do this very very well and we all know that they never are really in any danger, but they do an amazing job of creating an atmosphere of "real" danger. The idea of "real" in the theatrical world is very subjective, cause even when you do it for real, it is still fake, because you have done it before and have come up with techniques to help you do the stunt. The audience can only imagine themselves doing the trick/stunt for the first time, where as we performers have done the tricks/stunts many many times and have developed an ablity to concentrate and "work through" the trick/stunt. Why take out the bottoms of the bottles? Why not use bottles with stickers on them? Why bottles? Why no light bulbs? Florecent tubes? By not using bottle bottoms and bottle shards with lables, light bulbs and such you take the "real" out of it, beause you create favorable conditions to do the trick/stunt in. By following those rules, your presentation is no longer "real", but a series of decisions made to make the trick/stunt easyer.

When you really think about it most sideshow stunts are not "real" to some degree.

Blockhead? Nasal cavity goes straight back.

Sword swallowing? There is no edge to the swords. Rod swallowing is a better term.

Bed of nails? Physiscs. Go look at how a bridge is made.

Fire eating? Science. Take away one part of the fire triangle to make it go out. (spark,O2,fuel)(really its the slow liver poisoning thats the danger)

Sword ladder? Step even, dont slide the foot on the edge.

Glass eating? Use a light bulb because the glass is finer and more sandy, eat a banana after, crunch it all, dont swallow the 'big' pieces. Why not eat a beer bottle? Oh yes, cause glass that big is dangerous to the human digestive system.

Human Pin cushion? Put the pins through the arms and neck and only through small patches of skin near the surface where their is fewer veins etc. Why not straight through the arm, or the torso?

In the end if you do it for "real", or "the easy Hooey way" it only matters if you entertain the audience.
There are many roads to mecca my friend, dont "hooey" one of them, or look down your nose at them just because you follow a diffrent road.

[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: Todd ]

[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: Todd ]

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[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: Todd ]</p>

[Doctor Eric]

I knew that was coming.
Other side of the fence Todd. If you have FAITH in science, that's fine. Go see Zamora. I started off my post with "IN MY OPINION, Todd's post is a bunch of hooey", I give my audience more credit than most, and I don't want to argue with you, you have the right to believe what you want, I just wanted to offer the other side of things to Had Matter. I know lots of folks who agree with you, I just don't. I never made a comment about YOU, just your advice. The argument we are having is very, very old. Once again, no offense.

[martin ewen]

I'm just a nitpicking idiot and I should be stapled to a wall while someone reads these posts to me from across the room but faith and science are mutually exclusive. You can't have faith in science. The definition of faith is believing in something that cannot be proven, the definition of science is believing in things that systematicly and repeatedly can.
Oh my god..someone outside's just missused a hyphen..I must dash

[Doctor Eric]

Actually, science can only prove itself, and it's motives are suspect.

[martin ewen]

Science can only prove itself because all outside it cannot be proven and relies on faith.
Science and faith are both big things and to attribute motive to 'A systemized knowledge derived from observation.' is in my opinion just a tad harder than attributing a motive to ' an unquestioning belief'
still live and let live I say, personally I like science because i can question it and I like dictionarys because they help me with what words actually mean.

[martin ewen]

Speaking of science and on a less esoteric level.
This is not directly related to nails and glass but fire and all the messy smelly fluids that go with it.
Quite often kero and petrol and the like take a few washes to get rid of the smell on your skin.
I'm serious..Try rubbing peanut butter on your hands or face or whatever instead of soap and washing that off.
The oil breaks stuff down or something and leaves you with a clean fresh, slightly peanutty smell first time.

[Todd]

Martin rocks.
On the other side of this, Eric, I'm not mad.
What I do want to point out is that because this is a forum the ideas that get posted here are, for the most part, an informal debate.
(with the exception of the Blah-blah section which was set up to just mentall jerk-off on the net. Which would explane the stick floors)
With the informal debate setting in mind, sure have your opinion, but be ready to back it up with more than just "I'm allowed to have my opinion". That is sort of the trump card which stops all of us from learning form others, and is used all too often in our world today. I jumped on your post because your opinion is valid (very valid) but I wanted you to back it up better than "Hooey" and "It is how I feel"
Also, we live in an "end-gaining" culture which looks at debate as a "win or lose" situation, which it is not. We should use these forums for more than just "I feel this way" or "HEY, come watch me perform this weekend at the.....". If we open ourselves up to having our opinions questioned and challenged , we all might learn more about our work and find way that we never thought of to do the work. I'm also siding with Martin on this one in the support of science (in my case the science of debate), because it can be questioned and challenged. Our "faith" or belif systems are a choice. We choose to think one way or another, either through education or ignorance. We (all of us, myself included) should open our faith up to be challenged and then we can take a hard look at what makes up our faith and why we chose to make that our faith.
(Faith here in the larger meaning of our beleif systems albeit religion, performing, child rearing, education etc.)
So, go ahead, post an opinion, but when you do realize you open yourself up to have those opinions challenged.
I could have said your post was a bunch of hooey, and then where would we be. I insted went ahead and tryed to back up my opinion with reasons for why I feel the way I do.

Also, MArtin is right, peanut butter is the best stuff, or keep a small bottle of peanut oil handy. There is something to be said though for smushing peanut butter between your fingers

Onward

[Doctor Eric]

Ahem.
Now let me start by saying that all you say is quite true. And, as a matter of fact, is not in question. My point, made (but odviously not quite clearly) about 5 posts ago, is that the Had Matter's thread asking for advice and schooling is not the place for another one of these long-winded semantics debates, however, I would be perfectly willing to debate semantics all day long face to face, Todd, since I am planning on working Daytona for July/August, I may very well be able to pay you a visit.

[The Had Matter]

Ok well- several things to address

1 I apologise for sparking a huge debate on the subject of real - not real. I want to do the 4 nails because I personally think it looks neat (any tips on this one todd?).
I am somewhat mad - (been practiceing my kickflips and 180 board spins on the rola bola today) - I think I'm going to learn to do the glass walk both the "real" and "not real" way and then try to decide on which to do depending on how much I cut myself.

2 Just for the record - (sorry martin) I'm doing a Physics degree and you do just have to have faith in a lot of things - at the cutting edge some of it is just "well it works and we think it's coz... um...er...magic" gravity being a good example. it works. it's predictable but we're not sure how the force works - (I just really hope it never fails)

3 well said todd. I'm bored of the flame wars (even though I've tried to stay out of them all) - this place is (in my mind) for free exchange of ideas, tips and techniques within the busking/sideshow/general performer industry

4 17 swords - impressive! I've decided not to go down that route nor do I fire-breathe these days - I'm too bothered about what it does to me. (not wishing to cause offence here) I figure cuts, breaks and bruises heal sooner or later but parafin poisoning won't and my kneck is damaged enough already.

5 Ok stephon - thank you I found out that they're £20 a shot and still have sharp edges so that's that one out the window.


Ok - I've been thinking of smashing a sheet of plane glass then walking on that as I could do that on site without having to remove any of the pieces then thereby removing another part of the act that suggests that it's a trick. any opinions?

Thank you all once again - Keep throwing knowlege at me, I am learning slowly but surely.

<img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" />

[Scot Free]

[quote]Originally posted by The Had Matter:
<strong>Ok well- several things to address
(been practiceing my kickflips and 180 board spins on the rola bola today)
<img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

REeeeeeaaaaallly?????????????
Kick-flips eh? I'd like to see that!
I've been working on board spins for years, I still
wont put 'em in my show 1. way too sketchy still and @. way too fucking scary.

I'll add that I agree that "Science" requires faith.
Science seeks closure, it seeks to answer questions but it only ever gives us probabilities. Science has not answered anything, only given best guesses that later become outdated when faith in new instruments replaces faith in old intstruments.

[Doctor Eric]

Matter...
Pane glass is a thousand times more dangerous than bottle(tempered) glass, but, if you can do it, I'm all for it! BTW, thanks for having the knowledge to say something I can never exactly get across!

[The Had Matter]

Eric - I'm investigating a pane glass which i believe may be tempered - I've seen some broken and it looks more walkable than a bottle- I'll investigate some more and let you know. As to having knowlege - that's doubtfull smile.gif Thank you for being so helpfull.

Scot - I'd be happy to show you if we ever meet up.
My thing is adrenaline stuff and balanceing (pref together) - it stops being scary really quickly.


Kickflips on the rolla are HARD - I have not got very far yet. The spins by comparison are a doddle.

I think if I can get enough spring in the board (old skate deck perhaps) then any number of spins and flips are possible.

My current fave trick is a 180 jump onto the rolla then continueing the spin with the board on the tube so that I do 360 in total - Looks impressive and didn't take too long to get.

Spinning the board underneath you when you jump into the air is trickier than spinning with it. It's mostly mind over fear - the worst that can happen is a few bruises. (I wear shin pads when practiceing as you will hit your self in the shins lots)

other tricks I'm putting in the show are:

Transfer from board to walking on tube and back again
various running and jumping mounts
A transfer from balanceing on tube to board having someone throw the board in.
perhaps ultimately unicycling on tube etc.

I'm kind of hoping to turn this sort of thing into a trademark act as It serves to seporate the stuff I do from everyone else.

That said - if you want to I'll e-mail you some more detailed instructions as I figure them out.


<img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" />

[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: The Had Matter ]</p>

[Pyromancer]

Ouch! Were we having a debate about (supposedly) dangerous tricks or about debates itself? Why can't we just stick to the matter, even if it's not peanut butter?
Speaking about peanut butter or peanut oil: will olive oil have a similar effect? At least it smells better. And don't worry, I'll try it out anyway.
And about real and not real: ofcourse we aren't superhumans. I'd be the last one to state that. And ofcourse, most tricks are relatively easy to learn. And ofcourse one has to do his or her best to really get hurted. Ofcourse it's the show that makes the impression.
But that won't take away the fact, that some of the tricks mentioned in this thread are potentially dangerous. And with an attitude that says 'I can't go wrong, it's just the performance' you are very likely to hurt yourself sooner or later, just because you are ignorant about what you are doing. How many people get hirt in the easy trick that we all perform on a daily basis: walking? If you don't look were you walk, you might trip over...
I don't care about how many times someone performed a (supposedly) dangerous trick. Any time the trick is performed, the performer should be just as aware as he or she was the first time. Much of the danger is about the dangerous assumption that the trick is performed so many times, that you hardly can get wrong. Because you still can.
Gradually, you overcome your fear and step by step, you come closer to the edge and if you are confident enough to cross the line, you will fall down. And particulary in the case of fire: it's an animal, an beast that you may try to tame, but if you show your back, it will bite. For sure.
Too many performes, pyrotechnicians etc. get ignorant over the years and sooner or later they will make a fatal mistake.
The show may get better when you look for the edge, the thin line between hurting yourself and not. I found myself coughing blood from the pneumonia I suffered twice from firebreathing. It was my own bloody mistake, but it felt more real than I ever expected. Firebreathing is relatively easy, but there are definately some real aspacts regarding health and fire-hazard not to be dismissed.

How easy the trick may be, always stick to a certain awareness of the potential dangers...

[HiveQueen]

Because I'm sick of studying protein synthesis, I'd like to point out the great popularity of the Monty Python / Spanish Inquisition / Comfy Chair bit. Sure, there's great money to be made in pain. Witness rolfing, BDSM, stilletto heels, and Ouchy the Clown (www.ouchytheclown.com).

If the risk / pain is your thing, fine, have fun with it. Some people will pay to watch you bleed, others will be disgusted and leave. If you don't like hurting, DON'T. Do a show where, with great lead-up and to-do, you walk COMPLETELY BAREFOOT across a patch of GRASS. (You can sprout sod in a lightweight foam base; they use it for rooftop gardens.) Or do glass, but use safety glass. Hell, use sugar cubes, use a thermoplastic polymer. (If an eight-year-old with an attitude runs across it, set him on fire, shouting, "You want real?? How's that!? That real enough for you?!" It'll give the brat character.)

Half the people out there are going to think you're faking no matter what you do and the other half are truly impressed when you manage to juggle five balls while standing on only one foot*. Don't do something you're not comfortable with "for the audience," regardless of whether your discomfort comes from its being too dangerous or too safe. Find whatever it is that you enjoy doing and give a good show around that. If you can't, you're in the wrong business.

*Actual percentages may vary from those given.

I'll stop ranting now.

[Todd]

I've learned alot from Steve Rigatz on the nature of Net forums, and so I usually limit myself to 2 replies to a given topic, but I just had to ring in one last time.

Hive Queen, nicely said.

And Eric, why not discuss it here? To my mind we were having a constructive discussion on this topic. One that we can all get something from. Sure you can belittle my idea that we should be using the net for an exchange and debate of ideas as a dry "semantics" lesson, but I posted that because you branded my help as "Hooey" and then hid behind the very wimpy defensive argument of "It is my opinion stop picking on me"(not your words). I was also ,in my opinion, posting something to help as well, and was told it was "Hooey". I simply wanted to discuss the "super-human" or "performer" theorys of entertaining.
Again, if you dont want your ideas challenged, then dont post them.
For everyone else, I'm sorry if my long winded posts have annoyed.

Matter, I'm glad your question sparked this dicussion, so thanks for bringing it up and good luck on getting your bed of glass together.

Chao

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Todd ]</p>

[Doctor Eric]

"Why not post them here?"
Because that's not what Matter asked for, and it is his thread. Stop getting abusive Todd, you're acting like a fool. I have no defense, because I am not defensive. I have no reason to justify or defend my comments to you, and I won't have the argument here because I have heard it a thousand times before, and it is extremely boring. Especially for those not involved. If you want justification, then come see my show sometime, otherwise feel free to continue thinking that you are RIGHT. and I am WRONG. I never "hid" my statements about anything, and you were never told that you're statement's were hooey, because I was talking to matter. And, I was being nice when I said that, because immediately following my first perusal of your post, the first thing I said was "That's the biggest load of washed up carny bulldrek I have ever heard in my life." I meet those guys all the time, and if you want to waste that much time preparing for a stunt that can be done impromptu, then so be it. I personally think that if you are that scared, then you just shouldn't leave the house at all, but, then again, that's my opinion. Which, by the way, is not a defense, it is a realization that quite a few stubborn and arrogant people never really have. I do not argue with anyone that believes A) in the new flat-earth society known as "science" (try reading up a little on consensus reality, and where the scientific method fails miserably) or B) that they are "right". And, once again, no offense, it's just a road I have walked down before (typical magician attitude) and I prefer not to do so again via electronic posts. The nature of these bullettin boards leads quite easily to hurt ego's (yes, mine included) flame wars, and mindless sniping. All without ever having to see the other person's face. So, I say again, I would like to meet and talk with you, as I have respect for any self-respecting performer, I would like to see your show, and have a good time doing so, and if necessary, I would like to drag this argument down into the dirt for hours with you. I would just prefer to do it in an environment where, instead of just mindlessly insulting each other every couple of days, we could talk face to face and leave each other's presence with a warm feeling of mutual friendship. So don't bait me, because I have nothing to prove to you and it is completely immature and unprofessional. Just wait my friend. We can hash this stuff over and over again face to face.

[firegirl]

wow... all this theory... wow, i say.

fyi ~ thom britain does a really nifty glass walk routine... i'm suprised that he hasn't logged in his input yet.

to both todd & eric... you both are amazing performers (todd's show was one of the first variety acts i EVER saw... one that made me interested enough in the art to badger brian 'broon' howard into teaching me something about fire eating ... eric's troup is one of the most realistic & well reputed shows in nola... btw, eric... sorry i missed the show last nite - i had a date.) with different perspectives.

personally, i will always take the 'safe' route to anything... but, i admire anyone who really puts themselves in danger for the entertainment of ordinary people (who couldn't do the stunts either the safe or dangerous way.)

as a fire eater - and we all know that once you figure out the 'science' or 'gimmick' to it, is about as dangerous as drinking a hot cup of coffee - i agree with todd in saying that showmanship is key in any performance... you can stand on stage and pick your nose (which i've done) and, as long as you present it with style and stamina - your crowds will eat it up... (not the booger... ewwww.)

brooke hall (a man that i rarely credit with having taught me anything about performance) once said something really brilliant to me... it was: 'we are the giants in this world.'
meaning - we have to be larger than life, superhuman... the audiances don't give a sh*! about the 'science' behind fire eating, glass walking, sword swallowing or anything else we do on stage... what they care about is that they are seeing someone who is entertaining performing an stunt which they PERCEIVE that they, themselves, cannot do.

in the end - this is what makes me choose the safer gimmicked ways of doing my stunts... because, if my audiances really don't care if i'm in danger of hurting myself - why take the risk? (kudos to those who do...)

just call me 'wimp'girl -- if you must.

and, martin! i'm gonna have to try that peanut butter thing... tho' i've developed a strange love of the taste & smell of coleman... sort of an acquired thing... like enjoying martinis... (something else that brian 'broon' howard taught me...)

just my two cents...
~firegirl

btw ~ eric, you never answered my question about the sword swallow... do you know anyone who could help me learn this?

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: firegirl ]</p>

[Doctor Eric]

You asked a question about learning to swallow swords? I'm sorry, I didn't realize...
I hate it when people ask me this, because just recently a few of my friends hurt themselves seriously doing this. I'll tell you the horror stories first, then a quick lesson.
Two different friends of mine (who ironically, don't even know each other) were swallowing swords, one was highly experienced, the other new to the trade, but taught by Zamora the Torture King. Both, at one point or another, gagged on their swords, and both got serious infections deep in their throats, neither can swallow swords anymore, and one had to have a rather large cyst removed from her throat. The problem is, you don't find out that you messed up until much, much later, and if the infection has gotten far, it's possible that your life will be in danger.
Now, in my opinion, the best way to learn is to tie a button to a length of string, and swallow and bring it up 7-10 times a day. Give this at least two weeks to insure that each and every gag-reflex (as I hear, there are multiple gag buttons on the way down) is effectively conquered. DON'T rush yourself. Please. You can get hurt real bad and not know it (this is the bad part, getting hurt and knowing it is no big deal usually). I would also have a metal worker teach you how to properly care for a sword, as they are a bit tough to keep from rusting, plus, same metal worker can file that sucker down for you and make it real smooth. Now, as far as teachers go, Todd Robbins' sideshow school at Coney is a good place from what I hear, and Zamora is always willing to teach pretty girls how to sword-swallow(this is a thinly disguised warning btw...). And there are a few Swallowers on this board who can probably help also.
By the way, Frack is now working with us, and he is great, full of vinegar and self-taught. But the way he gags on that sword scares the hell out of me. Please all, wish the best for Frack.

One more thing. I apologize to Todd for my previous message coming off as a bit meaner than I intended it to be, I have no doubt of Todd's abilities as a performer. What annoys me is the unrelenting want of "backing up" of opinions, and the egotistical need for credentials. I've never asked for anyone else's, and I resent being asked for mine. It's childish. When I see someone post, I assume they are a performer, and at least have the slightest bit of a clue. I would ask for the same in return.

And, as to the reality debate, my personal theory is that you should believe in the things you do, or else they come off as soul-less(and, in reality, are empty and devoid of meaning). I don't think everyone should do dangerous stunts, and I have no problem with people who want to stay safe. But, art is a form of communication, not a mindless display of "Look what I can do". I do not consider the things that I do to be super-human, I just think that the human body is capable of anything that people set their minds to. My performance tries to convey to the general public my thoughts on consensus reality, and this is also consistent with the history of Fakirism and Sufism. More important than the "how" of these things is the "why".

In my opinion.

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Doctor Eric ]</p>

[HiveQueen]

[quote]Originally posted by Doctor Eric:
<strong>...Both, at one point or another, gagged on their swords, and both got serious infections deep in their throats...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Curious - Are such sword-swallowing infections generally due to actual scratching of the esophagus, or deep bruising, or what?

[Doctor Eric]

Deep esophagus scrapes and scratches, then because of all the nasty's that live in your throat, they get seriously infected, both of these friends had to have surgery, and neither of them knew what was wrong at first. They just felt real tired and sick and groggy, then they went to the hospital and weren't allowed to leave for a week or two. Scary stuff. But, I think the button swallowing method is harsh enough on the gag-reflex to conquer it completely.
Actually, HiveQueen, I was just talking to Frack about this, and was wondering what sorts of things would be good for him to drink on tour that are natural antibiotics, vinegar was my only solution. I've gotten the impression that you know a bit about herbs and stuff, do you have any suggestions?

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Doctor Eric ]</p>

[HiveQueen]

[quote]Originally posted by Doctor Eric:
<strong>Deep esophagus scrapes and scratches...get seriously infected... I was just talking to Frack about this, and was wondering what sorts of things would be good for him to drink on tour that are natural antibiotics, vinegar was my only solution. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Disclaimer: I am NOT a doctor or even an herbalist; I read and studied a lot of this during my training in eastern medicine and medical massage therapy, but my license specifically excludes diagnosis and treatment of infectious illnesses, except as specifically prescribed my a medical professional. If you think you may have an infection, see a doctor; even if you're uninsured, most communities have free or low-cost medical services available if you ask around. By reading this post, you are agreeing not to sue me or beat me up even if you suffer health problems and/or death as a result of my advice.

That said...

Right-o about the nasties in the esophagus infecting scrapes. Most important thing is to drink a glass of water after you eat anything, EVERY TIME, for at least 10 days after your last swallow. That should at least help to rinse any scrapes a bit cleaner.

Avoiding spicy foods, cigarettes, eating large meals right before bed, etc. will also help. (Yes, I KNOW the cigarette smoke goes down a different tube... where it screws up your ability to heal quickly.)

As far as what to drink, vinegar sounds sensible - I recommend apple cider vinegar, (BRAGG's is a good brand for this; look in health food stores if you can't find it elsewhere). Not sure what kind of concentration you need; I'd try a tablespoons or three in a glass of water (?) - again, after you eat anything, and also right after the sword swallow. Don't want to be dumping too much vinegar into your stomach, though, so maybe vinegar just after a swallow, and after eating for 10 days after a gag; water after eating other times... Thoughts, anyone?

A tablespoon of salt in a glass of water is also good for gargling if you've got oral piercings or scrape the entrance to your throat, but you probably don't want to drink it; not good for you and might make you vomit.

Another thing I've heard recommended is myhrr extract, found in health food stores - a dropperful in a glass of water. This is definitely antibacterial, but it tastes like floor polish and may not be so good for you to take regularly, might end up being worse for you, plus it's pretty harsh -DON'T use it straight. Ask around if you're thinking of trying this, and you might want to limit use to only after gags; not as a regular thing. If you use it, try coating your tongue with oil first and drinking some minty tea after.

Of course, if you're fire-breathing, I'd imagine the fuel you're swallowing is going to kill anything in its path; so sword-swallow first, fire second. Don't intentionally drink fuel or rubbing alcohol or any of that; if you've got a death wish, there are much easier and more pleasant ways to get there.

Also, I really really urge you to practice safer oral sex. Sure, it's a lot less fun for everyone. So's oral gonorrhea. You can catch most STDs orally, and esophogeal scratches are just going to up your chances. At the very least, don't swallow and try to make sure your partners are clean. Really, though, your best bet is latex (or one of the new non-latex options) regardless of if you're going down on men or women. For men, use condoms (without spermicidal lubrication, tastes icky) - they're available in all sorts of colors and flavors. For women (or rimming), use dental dams (squares of latex) - also available plain or flavored, and they even make these clever little garter things to hold them in place if your hands are busy elsewhere. If you don't have a dam, cut a condom lengthwise or use saran wrap. If you live somewhere without a lot of sex-positive shopping options, or you're shy, buy 'em over the internet (or request a print catalog) from Good Vibrations (the bay area's favorite clean well-lighted place for safe and fun sex) at www.goodvibes.com (http://www.goodvibes.com) (go to their online store and do a search for whatever you need. (If you're looking for flavored condoms, just search for 'condom' and browse; searching for 'flavored' misses a few.) Or go to your local Planned Parenthood location and tell them you want to be safe and responsible, they'll be proud of you and give you all sorts of free goodies.

Can you tell I grew up in Berkeley, where they make sure we learn all these things in school?


Other things:


See pictures of your esophagus at http://www.gicare.com/pated/eieg0001.htm

Make sure you're taking your vitamins, and getting your RDA of Zinc. (Promotes faster healing of this kind of thing.) Don't OD on this stuff, though.

Make sure your sword is CLEAN. Wash it with antibacterial soap, dry it, keep it clean, don't let the public smear their grubby little fingers all over it. If you need to pass it around for reasons of verisimillitude, wipe it off with a vinegar-dampened paper towel afterward - it'll add to your show, make the trick look truly dangerous.

If you're prone to oral candidasis (yeast in the throat, called thrush in infants - signs include itching in the throat, white spots in the throat or white fur on the tongue) treat it; it makes your throat & esophagus much more likely to get hurt. Acidophilus helps - look for live culture yogurt, or actual acidophilus in tablet or liquid form (in milk base or various vegan bases; apple and carrot and stuff). It's also good to take if you do screw up your throat and have to take antibiotics, especially if you're female. Diflucan is an oral treatment (for candida) that works pretty well if you've got health insurance or scads of cash- the 150 mg dose is marketed as a "single dose treatment" so they can only prescribe one at a time (and charge you for each one), which may work fine if this is a rare infection for you, but if you've got a chronic problem with it ask your doctor to prescribe you 9 of the 200 mg pills, which aren't marketed as single dose so they'll only hit you with the copay once (check this with your own insurance people). Take one a day for three days, then one a month for six months, and cut as much sugar and simple carbohydrates and yeast-promoting foods (mushrooms, beer, wine, chocolate, cheese, everything worth eating) out of your diet as you can. Start eating lots of butter, though, or you'll lose way too much weight.

For other herbs and gargles, make friends with someone at a health-food store or herb store who seems to know what they're talking about (hint- if they talk about the vital living energy of the herbal extracts, take anything they say with a really big grain of salt.) Careful with drinking random herbal concoctions, though - being made from herbs doesn't mean they won't f*ck you up if you take them wrong.

And I like Jim's idea of getting a tiny little camera in a clear plastic tube and swallowing that - just like breast self-exams, keep track of your esophogeal health through regular self-checks.

Good luck.

[firegirl]

...thanks for the advice eric... will have to further investigate this sword-swallow thing...

thom gave me a weird contraption that is supposed to emulate a sword that he was given to practice with... looking at this behemoth of a thing & considering the button string method - i opt for the smaller of two objects to start with. as the first couple of times i tried to swallow thom's contraption - i nearly threw-up...

(oh - just shut up... i know what you all are thinking.)

damn - i didn't know frack was going to be there last night... i would have ditched my date to meet the infamous frack...

as far as throat remedies are concerned... my voice teacher always had me gargle with warm salt water whenever i had infections... also, tea and honey are soothing - stay away from spicy foods, ciggarettes and dairy products... i do not know if these will work for sword swallowing... but, they sure as hell help restore the voice after you've strained it or been sick...

hope that helps? thanks again...
~firegirl

[firegirl]

btw ~ just reading hivequeen's post...

re: ingesting fuel ---&gt; i ALWAYS do the following things before and after a day of fire eating/blowing...

1.) drink lots of water before, during and after the show...(as it will help flush out the toxins from your system)

2.) eat bread if i feel i've injested too much fuel (as it will absorb the toxins and prevent severe poisening... only you can tell what your limits are - ususally i know if i've injested too much fuel if i get a really bad headache immediatly following my show. by immediate i mean - within minutes... as if you are just starting doing fire, you'll have some sort of reaction to the fuel until your system builds up a tolerance to it... like you'll feel high, or sick to the stomach or have a mild headache... but, better safe than sorry.)

3.) i drink a large glass of choclate milk after every show... again - it coats the stomach... helps to prevent your system from absorbing too much fuel... plus, choclate milk is yummy.

4.) DO NOT DRINK ON SHOW DAYS! before, after or during a show... as booze will dehydrate you... so will coleman... your body will not be able to process the two toxins & you could end up REALLY sick! (i didn't believe this until i experianced the effects of three beers, five 30 minute shows and being in the sun all day at the louisiana ren. faire this fall - i was one sick firegirl)

5.) know the number for poison control by heart. the average fire eater injests between 1/4 & 1 TEASPOON of fuel per show... that's at the outside maximum - doing between 5 & 7 shows/day, less than 1/2 a cup... if you inadvertantly injest anymore than this amount - you could die. really. i had a friend who took a mouthful of fuel to do a blow & someone startled him - he swallowed it & ended up in icu for three days... the effects of this poisoning was similar to a stroke... you don't want that - even if his tips were very good for that show (his partner passed the hat after the emt's took him to the hospital... true story!)

6.) DON'T EVER PURPOSFULLY SWALLOW FUEL... EVER!

there are probably other saftey measures that i've over looked... but, these are just things i suggest...
~firegirl

[Doctor Eric]

Since the topic is starting to revolve around fire eating/breathing I figured I would share my thoughts on something very few fire performers seem to know about... Chemical Pneumonia.
It sucks.
Horrible.
Nasty.
The most painful thing I have ever dealt with (and remember, I'm the guy that deals with pain negation on a regular basis).
DON'T GET IT.
And here's how...
I always hear fire eaters/breathers talk about swallowing fuel, which is the LEAST of your concerns. Lamp oil is inert, just passes straight through, just like olestra. It may make you feel a bit nauseous, but no big deal. Chemical Pneumonia is what happens when you inadvertently inhale the mist you make when you blow fire. Any good fire blower can make a very fine mist, so the better you are, the more danger you are in. My experience actually came from the fact that I had a sudden small leap in skill. I had been blowing for about 8 months, and one day, I tried to sustain a flame without the torch in front of my face, and it worked. Woo-hoo I thought, and started making myself into a fire-fountain, blowing straight up, with the torch out to the side (no longer contacting my stream), sustaining the flame for a good 15-30 seconds. Wow, real cool I said. What I didn't think about is that when you sustain like that, the flame peters out rather than just disappearing when you stop and pull the torch away. Which means that for half a socond or more, you are misting without burning it. Which means you are standing in a cloud of lamp oil mist. It was only a matter of time before I didn't back away enough before I inhaled, and about 10 minutes later I felt a sharp pain in my side. What ensued was a month of the worst experience of my life. My whole world was pain, the most painful thing I could do was try to lay down, of course movement was pretty close in pain factor, I was hallucinating madly, and couching up a mason jar full of glow in the dark green goo daily. Right now inhale the smallest breath you can. That's how much air I could take in before it felt like someone was hitting my lungs with a sledgehammer from the inside. Had my case gotten any worse, I would have suffocated. Plus, once you get it, you have a weakness to it. The smell of petroleum products makes my lungs hitch to this day (three years later), I no longer blow fire, except on special occasions.
If you do get it, go see an herbalist, because doctors can't help you. Mostly, you just have to hope you live through it. The only thing that helps, and only a little, is quite odd. A cold-coffee enema. From what I was told, it is like opening up the drain pan on your liver. All the poisons just drop out.
And with that pleasant image, I leave you.

[Chance]

Jim, I would like to vote the past few letters by HiveQueen, Firegirl and Eric into the library. Maybe under the heading "General Fire Eating and Sword Swallowing FAQ" or something similar. Great stuff!

[Pyromancer]

I also found those posts very informative and they sound quite reasonable. I have had chemical pneumonia once quite badly - coughing up blood - and I was close enough to feel totally wracked a couple of times. A friend of mine has suffered a collapsed lung from this.

A few remarks, though:

When it comes to this subject, everybody seems to know what to do and what not, everybody is an expert so it seems. But hardly anyone ever, points to a reliable source for his information, many times, it's 'what people said'. Again, those posts sound very reasonable, and I think they are mostly true, but it won't be a bad idea, if they are included in the library, to mention that reality may be different...

The building up of tolerance for fuel firegirl is talking about may exist, but sometimes I have the idea that I'm getting more sensitive to oil, as Eric describes.

Milk can give some relief, indeed, and I prefer chocolat milk as well. But I also have been told, that milk may actually help your body taking up the toxins, instead of getting them out. I should do some research to back this up, though.

I also breath long flames, and don't exactly get the mist-problems Eric describes. It's dangerous to inhale the mist, indeed, but I don't fysically understand what he means.

AS DANGEROUS, or even more, as the mist, is the smoke that comes from your torches, NEVER inhale this smoke and prevent your audience from it as well, by wrapping your torches in a wet or impregnated cloth. The smoke is basically vapourised oil, so it may cause chemical pneumonia as well.

Another story I heard from different people, and that needs some research to back it up, is that swallowing fuel may lead to pneumonia as well. The theory is this: a small part of the oil, will dissolve in your blood, where your body cannot do anything with it. The only way for your body to get rid of it, is through the lungs. When it builds up there, it may lead to pneumonia as well.

And another tip that was not in the posts: if you would ever swallow oil, NEVER try to vomit it out. You are very likely to get at least a little amount of oil in your lungs when you do so, that will leave you with a pneumonia as well.

Firegirl and Eric, thanks for sharing your info. If it's ok with you, I'd like to bundle the information into one comprehensive article for the library. And if you have any more information to share, please share it, so that it can be included.

Take care all of you...

[ 05-18-2002: Message edited by: Pyromancer ]</p>

[HiveQueen]

[quote]Originally posted by Pyromancer:
<strong>...When it comes to this subject, everybody seems to know what to do and what not, everybody is an expert so it seems. But hardly anyone ever, points to a reliable source for his information, many times, it's 'what people said'. </strong><hr></blockquote>

There are toxicology studies out there for pretty much every chemical on the market... I'll have access to some medical databases (and free time) after Wednesday and am happy to do some research, see what turns up. Could people let me know exactly what fuels you're using (brand name, manufacturer, and ingredients if possible; anything you can find on the label.) Also best estimates of how much you're swallowing, absorbing through skin, and inhaling per show, how many shows per day or week or month....


Also, http://www.aapcc.org/ is the American Association of Poison Control Centers, they have a search-by-area link to find your local Poison Control Center. The nationwide Poison Hotline is 1-800-222-1222, if you go to http://www.1-800-222-1222.info/jingles/home.asp you can download the Poison Help theme song (it's really catchy!)

[firegirl]

this is all very helpful information... never heard of chemical pneumonia... never even considered it...

two things i'd like to address that haven't been mentioned yet - this is probably redundant for those who've been working with fire for a while - but, for those who are reading this forum to learn about the arts - it's important stuff:

1. the differences in fuel that are used by fire manipulators (fancy name... ) -- the two most common used fuel types are: kero (lamp oil, pariffin) and 'white gas' (coleman, zippo lighter fluid, etc...) the differences between these are simple, yet very important.

kero is used primarly for doing blows and on poi and juggling torches. it cannot be used for mouth tricks (transfers, suspends, etc...) it is thicker in viscostiy and will not effectivly sustain a flame in your mouth. (tho' if you're in a bind - you can use it to do simple extinguishes) i believe that eric is correct in saying that kero is much like olestra. and, if injested in small amounts will just pass through your system with the only real side effects being nausea and possiable mild diarreah.

'white gas' - the fire eater's friend - is where you run into poisoning risks. thinner in viscosity, it is easily absorbed by the body. when amounts over 1/4 to 1/2 a cup of this chemical is absorbed into the body in a short amount of time (less than a week, i'd guess) you run the risk of severe poisoning. symptoms including: dizziness, nausea, severe headache, vomiting or diarreah. and, in more severe cases, hallucinations and a possiable coma like state.

a novice fire eater should expect to experiance some physical reaction when beginning to work with either fuel... as, i mentioned before - the body will build up a tolerence to the addition of small amounts of toxins over a long period of time. i really have no concrete scientific proof to back this up. i just have my own experiance and my vauge knowledge of the theory of immunization. (for example - i used to suffer 'digestive issues' and a mild headache after any amount of fire eating/blowing... now, four years later - i don't.)

my advice is: if you feel you're experiancing SEVERE symptoms of posioning (lasting longer than a 24 hour period of time) - get thee to a hospital. better safe than sorry.

you can see my previous post for more information on ways to combat some of this. but, for the most part - you kind of just have to suffer through it until your body gets used to you putting posion into it. i know this sucks (i just recently started doing blows as a regular part of my sets & had to go through the whole schpeil again w/kero...) but, you gotta suffer for your art. (i guess.)

'white gas' (in my opinion) should NEVER be used to do blows. as it is lighter in weight - burns hotter and quicker than kero & presents the very likely possiablity that your blow will 'back up' on you. causing severe burns and possiable death. (if you doubt me on this - i believe that both todd's better half & kevin the uncanny can speak with experiance and authority on this subject.)

another thing - some fire eaters who work in club settings will swear by the use of grain alchohol for use on torches (151, 190... new orleans performers should be very familiar with the existance of such substances.) i discourage this practice. as in my experiance, alchohol burns hotter than any other fuel (due to the sugar content.) and, even when every saftey precaution is taken - use of grain alchohol WILL result in minor to severe burns on the hands, mouth and tounge. (i speak from experiance on this - as i ran out of fuel while doing a bar show on bourbon street & decided to use 151 - i couldn't taste anything for weeks... and those were minor burns.) also, using grain alchohol, the flame tends to be small, hard to see and pretty unimpressive overall. not to mention - if you use it through out your show - you will likely end up pretty inebrieated... hence opening a whole new spectrum of safety issues.

for more information on fuels, torch construction, trick technique and safety - excellent articles are avaible on the web, authored by two giants in the world of fire manipulation: mephisto the magnificant (a tome of nearly 200 pages - very helpful to beginners and advanced eaters/blowers) and peter bendell (uk - shorter - but has excellent diagrams for torch construction.) you can find this (and, other) information on the web by doing a general 'google' search on the topic of 'fire eating.'

2.) along the lines of the topic of injury and illness: something that most fire manipulators don't think about - lung burn. lung burn occurs when you inadvertantly make the error of slightly inhaling while doing a mouth/torch stunt. what actually happens is a mystery to me - whether you inhale some of the fumes, part of the flame or what not... the result being that you mildly damage the lung tissue causing a condition which will feel like you have a very bad chest cold. (in more extreme cases, of course, inhaling the flame or fumes can cause immediate death.)

i do not know how to tell people to avoid this. other than, do not inhale while doing extinguishes, transfers, suspends. [tho' some inhalation is necessary to perform some of these tricks - but, if you'll excuse the comparison - it should be inhalation like in that of smoking a joint. where you take the smoke (flame) into the mouth... but, hold it there and do not let it progress past the back of the mouth... using what a singer would call a 'glottal stop' ... unlike smoking pot, where you hold it there for a moment and then inhale deeply... stopping nothing... not that i'd know anything about that... wink.gif ]

if you should sustain a case of 'lung burn' - my advice is to treat it exactly like you would a severe chest cold. bulk up on vitamins, decongestants (as the lungs will tend to fill with fluid when injured,) juices, fluids... get extra rest. and, in a couple of days (2 to 5 in the cases i've experianced) you'll be fine. as the lungs are amazing regenerative organs and have a rapid healing capacity... given you take care of yourself.

* a short disclaimer: i am not a chemist, doctor or any other kind of professional opinion on the aforementioned subjects. all the information presented in this post has been passed on to me through publications on the subject i've read -- or, my own personal experiance. i hope the information is helpfull & somewhat informitive. that being said, happy fire eating, folks!

~firegirl

btw ~ pyromancer - that is a incrediable photo in your sig line... what an amazing fireball!

[ 05-19-2002: Message edited by: firegirl ]

[ 05-19-2002: Message edited by: firegirl ]</p>

[Todd]

Actually Fire-girl, you should talk to Frack about the sword-swallowing thing. I've had some great discussions with him on the topic and he has a great method for learning the stunt. You really should meet with him and chat. I think what he has come up with is really quite good. And come on make the boy happy, show him the nipple transfer.
One thing Jeff Cobb has said about sword-swallowing
(He's got the best sword swallower name Tom Selectemy)
is that acid reflux can become a problem. When you train an involuntary part of the body to be voluntary, you have to keep it working or it gets lazy. The opening, or "spincter" into the stomach (yup there is one there. We actually have 5)
can get lazy and result in acid reflux. Jeff said the best thing to do is swallow a sword every other day just to keep it up, but there is the risk that in old age it can get weak and result in a real ongoing problem. I spoke with a Dr buddy of mine who is a ENT and he agrees that it could be a problem with age, but that is a could, not a for sure.

(As long as Eric doesnt think this is Hooey. *wink* Easy killer I'm just yanking your chain)

Also, Pyro, great website.
If you have not seen his blow-outs, go to his site. They are some really great works of art. Seriously.

[ 05-18-2002: Message edited by: Todd ]

[ 05-18-2002: Message edited by: Todd ]</p>

[firegirl]

hey todd ~
yeah - i know jeff... he's up at mi. rf. do you know how to get ahold of him? i didn't bother to think about him as a information source...

and, nope. not showing frack the nipple transfer... not because of modesty - it's frickin' painful!

and, i'm not into that pain thing.

~firegirl

[Amy]

vinegar?
this is a new one on me, and im a swordswallower! does it kill all known germs dead, and not give the oesophagus too much grief?
and which sort? white wine? balsamic?
very interested, please let me know
ta
amy

[Todd]

Hey,

I have not see Jeff in 2 years. Our paths (shows) have not crossed in a while. Your best bet would be to call the office of whatever show he is currently doing and have them pass off a message to him. Sorry I cant be more helpfull.

P.S.
Ronn "look at me, look at me, pay attention to me" Bauman says "hi"

[firegirl]

tell that bum of a tortuga twin that i miss his silly face & he should email me post haste!

hopefully our paths will cross someday, todd - i would love to talk shop w/you and alison someday!!!

off to sleep now...
cheers,
kate... uh, i mean FIREGIRL!

[Stephon]

Found this. Not really even sure what to say about it. Just thought it should go here.

Wearable Bed of Nails (http://www.throbatl.com/EC.bedonails.html)

[Pokie-Poke]

The "lung burn" fire girl was talking about is caused buy the fumes of the fule in your lungs, the damage dose not heal you just get used to it. A frend of mine's dad landed a p51 on it's canapy in '44. burning airplane fule frown.gif hes on O 24/7 now.

the worst of the lung burn, comes from from a blow back. fire brethers spend more time with unlit fule in there mouth, this means more fumes. If the fire makes it back to the mouth the fumes can ingnigt. this will cause an explotion in the lungs!!("I can do dis tric but once" -D. Duck) When the fumes burn up it condences colapsing the lungs, both lungs colapsing at once can stop you heart. CPR can bring you back, but you will still have to deal with the lung burn. this is obvisly worst case. but it is a real danger!

As for 151 and the like, you can absorb alcohol thru mucus membrans, so you don't eaven have to swalow it to get drunk. You will be les prpaird for trouble, and all that risk for a pathetic littel blue flame?

and you forgot to mention the fact that the fules mentiond all cause liver and kidny damage that is cumlitive, the more you do the worse it gets.

I teach a class in fire juggling at an event and the subject comes up every time, I don't want to discorage any one from learning this skill, but have you ever noticed that there are very few old fire breathers.

[Pyromancer]

[quote]Originally posted by Pokie-Poke:
<strong>the worst of the lung burn, comes from from a blow back. fire brethers spend more time with unlit fule in there mouth, this means more fumes. If the fire makes it back to the mouth the fumes can ingnigt. this will cause an explotion in the lungs!!(...) When the fumes burn up it condences colapsing the lungs, both lungs colapsing at once can stop you heart. CPR can bring you back, but you will still have to deal with the lung burn. this is obvisly worst case. but it is a real danger!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Though I am very cautious to say some things 'can't happen', I can't help being slightly sceptical about the information above. First of all, the right fuel for firebreathing (kero / paraffin / lampoil) doesn't evaporate that quickly, so the chance of them forming an explosive mixture with air on itself is already small. I have to mention, though, that it's not impossibke, that some mixtures sold as paraffin or kerosine may contain more evaporative fractions.
Further, you say that keeping the fuel unlit in the mouth, results in more fumes. But as you know, the lungs are made for breathing, which means there's a more or less constant stream of air moving in and out of your lungs, that will remove most fumes - if existant - and bring in fresh air without any fumes. This will reduce the risk of an explosive mixture even more.
Again, I don't say that a blow back like you and many others describe can't happen at all, I just consider it not very likely. I have had the flame literally tickling my lips for seconds on a row, while firebreathingbreathing, many, many times now. Apart from slightly burned lips every now and then, I just managed to burn the tip of my tongue once, but there may be other reasons for this.
I did have had the flames entering my nose a couple of times - not while firebreathing though. I have to admit, that this did make me worry a little bit about the chances of a more serious blow back. But as for now, my conclusion is that I just inhaled the flames a little bit. It never resulted in severe discomfort, I honestly don't know about possible damage done. But inhaling a flame through the nose feels bad enough to stop inhaling the flames immediately.

As for the lung collapse: a friend of mine suffered a collapse lung from a firebreathing accident and I have heard about more cases. More likely, it's caused my a little amount of paraffin that got into the lungs. Paraffin spreads quickly on the lung surface, a little drop can form a thin film on a huge surface of the lungs - like a drop of oil spreads on the water surface - causing severe and irrecoverable damage.

[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: Pyromancer ]</p>

[firegirl]

i have never sustained a case of lung burn from doing a blow... furthermore, i have never had a mouthful of white gas... the only time i've ever experianced lung burn has been when i inadvertantly took the flame from a torch head too far into the back of my mouth... i do not know if i inhaled smoke, flame or fume... however - i felt like shit (and sounded - coughing/rough sounding voice) for about seven days... i treated it like a bad chest cold (at the advice of someone more experianced in fire eating than i) and, i sufficantly recovered to feel like i did not have any symptoms remaining.

i am not an expert in medicine or science or any other technical field - i am reporting the information that i posess on these subjects second and sometimes third hand -- but, i do take the time to find out about the risks in dangerous things i choose to do in my show... as i think any smart performer should.

now - i wish to point out something again - about fuels. i am adament in my advice that kero/pariffin/lamp oil is the fuel to use for blows. it is dangerous to use white gas for blows. this is why: i recently asked my brother (who is a science type guy) to evaluate the differences between the two fuels and help me understand WHY kero doesn't work so well for torch tricks (suspends, transfers, etc...) and why white gas does. his explination is thus: kero is an inert fuel - meaning it is harder to ignite on a stable surface (skin, torches) -- it requires more heat to make it flame... it is heavier in viscosity. you can (of course) light it on anything if you apply fire to it long enough... but, he pointed out to me that if i took one of my torches and dipped it in kero, lit it and rubbed the flame upon my hand - it wouldn't transfer... or, if you poured it into a saucer and tried to light it with a match - it wouldn't. because you need to have the stable surface saturated with the fuel. stable surface meaning cotton or kevlar. it works with blows because you are blowing it THROUGH a flame (as opposed to applying a flame to it) and there is a chemical reaction with the air and fuel which will make it ignigte. white gas is not oil based it is thinner in viscosity and will ignite without the surface being saturated. it has a chemical likeness to alchohol & burns hotter and quicker... (meaning it evaporates and kero does not. which is why if you do a blow with kero you are often left with an oily residue on the floor or other objects which recieve the residual fall out of the blow.) kero is oil based and white gas is not... oils (though if enough is consumed it will result in posioning) will pass through the body with minimal absorbtion - white gas is just that a GAS and will absorb into your body at a much faster rate. (hence the issues with blood stream poisioning and liver damage.)

pyromancer is correct in saying that kero if inhaled into the lungs causes permanant damage - for the exact reasons he stated... it coats the lungs as opposed to absorbing into them... tho' i imagine it would be kind of difficult to inhale kero into the lungs... unless you had a situation where you were startled or made laugh or what ever the hell happens when you have the experiance of shooting soda or liquid out your nose -- the same kind of thing... down the wrong pipe if you will... white gas will make you sick as hell - but, it will absorb into the lungs and eventually - provided you get treatment - you can recover... but, i still wouldn't hold a mouthful of white gas...

based on this information & the experiances of my friends who have had bad accidents from using white gas to do blows - i remain adament in saying you should NEVER use white gas to do a blow.

liver and kidney damage are of course issues - however, if you are careful and treat your body right - there is no reason why you should sustain permanant damage... the effects in the area of liver/kidney damage are cumilitive (as pokie-poke pointed out) -- as are the effects of alchohol on the same organs... but, you have to put your body through a hell of a lot of abuse before it gets to the point where your body cannot recover. most of the fire eaters i know do not have a twelve month season... allowing their bodies time to recover from the poison they put into them -- they do not drink during show days -- and they take precautions to minimize the damage that they do sustain.

other than that - i have no further advice to give - i hope this is helpful... if you want to eat fire - there is no reason you shouldn't try it... but, i do discourage people from doing it - i will not ever teach someone to fire eat (i always tell people to go away and figure it out on their own & if they're serious enough to learn something on their own & come back to me with some torches and minimal skill - i'll talk to them then... this is how i learned.) though it is a beautiful art - no one can be a professional fire eater forever.

off the soapbox now...
~firegirl

[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: firegirl ]</p>

[ben woodling]

[quote] doing a blow... furthermore, i have never had a mouthful of white gas... <hr></blockquote>
he he... just sounded funny!o yea and read "gas" as "liquid"!

[Pyromancer]

Wauw! Bit by bit we get all the information together! Good post, firegirl...

Just a few remarks: the readon paraffin (or similar) ignites when blowing through a flame, is that you vapourize it with your mouth, in a cloud of little oil particles, that ignite easily. The drops you may find on the floor, are the drops that were too big to ignite.

The main difference between white gas and kero is the average amount of carbon-atoms in each molecule. Kero has more carbon atoms, therefore heavier molecules, that will won't float into the air as easily as white gas atoms do.
The way they are absorbed by your body, may have much to do with the size of the molecules. The smaller the molecule, the easier it will enter your body.
Don't mix up white gas with alcohol, since chemically they don't share that much in common. In fact, from a chemical perspective kero is closer to white gas than alcohol, as the amount of carbon molecules is the main difference.

But something tells me I'm pushing this too far now...
<img src="graemlins/haha.gif" border="0" alt="[ha ha]" />

Pyromancer

[firegirl]

well ~ sheesh... i didn't need to go to the trouble of asking my poor chemist minor brother -- you knew all along... smile.gif

anyhow - yeah, that makes sense... i think that when he likened white gas to alchohol, he was speaking of molecule density in a sort of manner of speaking... but - i understand what you're saying...

and - i did neglect to mention the vaporizing part of the blow thing... but, thanks for the additional pieces of info - it all makes sense now to my non-science related brain. wink.gif

cheers,
firegirl

[Chance]

Now that you guys have beaten the kero vs. gas debate into mush, how about adding dry powder into the mix? Any views/opinions on lacapodium (sp?) powder???

[clapchap]

About the lung burn...
I'm no expert, but i recently my leg caught on fire, and it wasnt fun. I'm sure flamin lungs wouldnt be too cool. I'm still missin leg hair, so be careful!
-Eric

P.S.- obviously i'm no expert if i let my leg catch on fire...

[Pokie-Poke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pyromancer:

Further, you say that keeping the fuel unlit in the mouth, results in more fumes.

I ment as aposed to fire eating where there is no unlit fule.

[Pyromancer]

Clapchap, thanks for your concern. But it's far easier to set your pants on fire than any human body part - or did your leg catch fire as well? <img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" />

Chance, Licopodium does work, but it's completely different, compared with liquid fuels. The trick with licopodium is, to create a cloud of the little spores, which you then can ignite. You can do that with a pipe made out of a little tin with holes in it - like a pepperbox - and a tube attached to it. If you blow thorugh the pipe, the licopodium will escape.
It works, but it's very different from firebreathing with liquids. I think the latter is more beautiful is gives room to more variations when using. I have to admit though, that I don't have much experience with licopodium. It's less dangerous for your health than firebreathing, that for sure.

Pokie Poke, I think Firegirl can reply to you more acurately as she is far more experienced in eating than I am. But as far as I know, when you eat fire, you'll get a lot of unburned fumes in your mouth, they escape from the torch you extinguish.

[Triona]

[quote]Originally posted by Pyromancer:
[QB]

Though I am very cautious to say some things 'can't happen', I can't help being slightly sceptical about the information above. First of all, the right fuel for firebreathing (kero / paraffin / lampoil) doesn't evaporate that quickly, so the chance of them forming an explosive mixture with air on itself is already small. I have to mention, though, that it's not impossibke, that some mixtures sold as paraffin or kerosine may contain more evaporative fractions.
Further, you say that keeping the fuel unlit in the mouth, results in more fumes. But as you know, the lungs are made for breathing, which means there's a more or less constant stream of air moving in and out of your lungs, that will remove most fumes - if existant - and bring in fresh air without any fumes. This will reduce the risk of an explosive mixture even more. <hr></blockquote>


The blow backs Pokie was talking about are very rare and have a very high fatality rate. They are probably the result of a fire-breather using an incorrect fuel source, though even a proper one might cause the reaction. Any fuel source that is ignited in the lungs, be it fumes or actual fuel, will cause the lungs to collaspe as it quickly burns off the oxygen and causes a vacuum. Depending on how much fuel is present, serious lung burns can occur. My father was the one who landed a P51 Mustang on it canopy during WWII. He had serious scarring in the lungs and the doctors told my grandparents he wouldn't live a year. He's still here (knock on wood) but he's now on oxygen 24 hours a day and is probably not going to be with us much longer because the pulmonary problems have lead to heart problems.

I know there's good money in fire-breathing, it just scares me because you can really mess yourself up. Like my grandfather used to say, there's worse things in life besides dying.

Just another two cents <img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[jester]" />

[firegirl]

what is this powder fuel y'all are talking about? i've never even heard of it.

as to fumes and fire eating/blowing... any time you put combustiable into your mouth you're going to be left with some residual fumes.... hence why fire eaters belch all the time... (brian howard first informed me of this phenomenon when i commented that he was a very gassy man - as he burped and hiccuped his way thru a group iva dinner one night.) tho' it's my understanding that the burping phenomonon is worse the more shows you do in a day... (i find this accurate) as the fumes left in your mouth after an extinguish or transfer are minimal -- you get a little bit more doing a suspend (as you're acutally suspending the burning fumes in your mouth) -- but, it's really a minimal amount.

i have heard of the blow backs that pokie described -- but, i have only heard of them in industrial settings (airline workers, fire fighters, etc...) i'm tending to agree with triona in guessing that they are very rare cases -- as almost every performer i know has done fire eating (either as part of their show or just to learn it) and before now i've heard horror stories about just about every type of injury (and the related effects on the performer telling the story...) known to man -- and, this has never come up. tho' i'm sure that if it happens it is fatal. it sounds as such.

clapclap - i'm sure setting your pant leg on fire sucks (pyro is right -- you will have to roast yourself a long time before flesh catches) and i hope your hair grows back soon. fire eating (tho' often mocked as a 'no brain variety skill...' second only to straight jacket escapes) does come with risks... you should know this without having to be told.

there are reasons our parents told us never to play with fire or matches or whatever the hell they said... it is obvious that i wasn't listening.

nary a show goes by where i do not burn my self in some fashion... i have little burn marks all over my fingers and hands (not bad - but, they're there) often have singed my hair, eyebrows, eyelashes, nose hair (ah - the smell of buring nose hair... exquisite) etc... i don't know how many boyfriends have had to hear the explination for fire blisters on or in my mouth, lips or tounge (incidentally - vitamine e is excellent for preventing scarring from minor burns -- and, i highly reccomend that every fire eater out there should buy stock in 'burts beeswax lip balm' --- miracle ointment it is -- tho' remember to wipe the shit off prior to doing anything involving fire and your mouth. trust me on that one... ha.) i once lit my face on fire doing the double tounge transfer when i didn't adequately shake the excess fuel off my torch... luckily for me my partner was on the ball and wiped my face quickly (actually before i realized anything untoward was happening) with the wet towel we keep on stage for just that reason... according to people who were in the audiance for that show (including my mother and father) it looked spectacular... but, it's one stunt i will never repeat.

i have burned numerous holes in numerous pairs of leather pants, ren fair costumes (all expensive to replace) and shirts... these are minor things. luckily for me i've never had a worse experiance... i know several people who've ended up in the er with third degree burns... one person who died... and, this is not because we (with the exception of kevin the uncanny) haven't following saftey precations... it's because it is fire.

and, shit happens.

no matter how many precautions you take.

~firegirl

[ 06-07-2002: Message edited by: firegirl ]</p>

[Chance]

Firegirl, any dry substance which has been reduced to a fine powder can be ignited by blowing it across an open flame. Experiment at home with powdered milk or sugar and you will see what I mean.

Lacapodium (sp) powder is laboratory quality, *highly refined* grain powder -- primarily wheat and barley from what I have been told. It is the extra additive found in capsulated and tableted medicines. So it must be easily disolved by the body, highly pure and refined, and able to carry a variety of medicines, etc.

When I last investigated (maybe 7 years ago) a pound of it went for maybe $30.00US. One pound is good for hundreds of blows. Which, by the way, is all it is good for.

I also hear it tastes REALLY bland. A friend mixes his 50/50 with powdered chocolate and keeps water close by. The trick is to take a mouthful, allow the outer part to stick to the insides of your mouth and then release - blow - the still dry inner portion, and then take some water.

On the plus side it is supposed to be extremely healthy.

[Doctor Eric]

It's Lycopodium Chance. Of course, other than the correct spelling, I know nothing about it. Which is appropriate, I guess.

[Triona]

Hey Firegirl,

I think the blow backs happen mainly to fire breathers. I read an article once that said it can happen when you don't keep a steady stream of fuel coming out of your mouth while you are igniting it (making a fire ball). How accurate that is I have no idea as I am deathly afraid of fire and have no desire to eat, blow, juggle or otherwise use uncontained fire (I'll use a barbeque grill and even they make me nervous).

Burns are not fun. I had boiling water spilt down my back when I was little, fortuantely it didn't scar. My mother didn't know proper first aid for a burn and put the burn cream right on instead of immersing me in cold water. Fortunately it wasn't on there long as my dad was on the phone to the pediatrician and he said to get it off right away. I can still feel the pain. Probably why I'm afraid of fire (either that or I burned to death in another life).

So, if you're doing a fire show and I disappear, don't be offended. I have all I can do to be around a campfire or fireplace at times. I'll never be competition biggrin.gif

[Thom]

Chance,

Just a slight correction,

"Lacapodium (sp) powder is laboratory quality, *highly refined* grain powder -- primarily wheat and barley from what I have been told. It is the extra additive found in capsulated and tableted medicines. So it must be easily disolved by the body, highly pure and refined, and able to carry a variety of medicines, etc."

That's wrong. Well, not all of it.

Lycopodium Powder is a non-explosive pine spore powder that requires a continuous flame to keep it burning. This substance derives from a plant found in South America that is known as club moss.

If your high school science teacher ever did the experiment where he coated the top of a bucket of water in powder, dipped his hand to the bottom of the bucket and came out dry as a bone. That was lycopodium powder in action.

Incidently, science teacher suppliers are the best source for bulk supplies of this powder at great prices.

Lycopodium used to be widely used in theaters as a pyrotechnique during the early 1900's. The "dirty" fallout and high cost are the reasons cited for it's demise.

And now you know!

Damn, I feel like Mr. Wizard!

[ 06-07-2002: Message edited by: Thom ]</p>

[firegirl]

thom... i always KNEW you were really mr. wizard in disguise!

bwahahahahahah!

smooches from,
firegirl

[Chance]

Don't worry about correcting anything I wrote, Thom. The letter was heavily qualified with phrases like "from what I have been told", etc. That, plus going on 7 year old memories about a product I never actually held in my own grubby little hands and anythng is likely to come rambling out.

Pine spores??? That would certainly explain the taste!

[Chance]

Okay kiddies, this just in:

http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/Lycopodium%20powder/

[Pyromancer]

Well, well, well...

How cynical. After a whole thread of talking about fire and safety I had this nice accident last weekend. While having a mouth full fuel, my throat decided to do a little hick-up. I swallowed a bit of paraffin and - even worse - a little bit came into my lungs. The result: minor but still very pain full chemical pneumonia again. The result: severe pain in the chest, difficulties with breathing, fever, sweating my guts out and feeling very cold as well...
It happened on Saturday and today - Friday - is the first day that I can say I feel somewhat good again. I must be a lucky man - it can take far, far longer to recover, I know by experience.

Well... the moral: if someone tells you firebreathing can go wrong: it's no joke at all!!!

Take care...

Pyromancer

[firegirl]

thank goodness you're ok...

~firegirl