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Old 09-27-04, 11:57 PM   #1
le pire
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USA campaigning

There's been political discussion here from time to time and I just wanted to throw this into the fray. For the past three weeks I've been working as a volunteer for the Kerry Campaign, going door to door in New Hampshire and working in the call center. I'm not going to inondate this forum with political rhetoric or statistic or anything but I just wanted to say that it has been a very good experience for me.

It's quite easy to preach to the converted and rant on a forum of fellow artists who I can be pretty sure share most of my political views. That doesn't make much of a difference and I'm hoping to help swing voters realise that they do indeed support Kerry and that Bush is NOT a conservative and his administration is disasterously incompetant.

I went up to NH today to hear John Edwards speak and got to ask him a question about reforming the UN (a subject that I thought he would be unprepared for, but he surprised me). I shook his hand afterwards but didn't get to ask him a follow up question because he had to kiss a baby (literally).

I would not consider myself to be a hardline democrat (I'm registered independent here and registered Socialist in France) and I despise politicians in general.

This election, however is just too important. The democracy we have all become used to is being threatened to its very foundation and the world we live in is turning volatile. Democracy is a relatively new thing-- in the 8,000 years of human history it has only been around for 200 years. The world could revert back to monarchies, oligarchies, feudalism, etc quite easily.

If you have a few hours per week to spare, then please find the local office of the candidate you support and help them.

Bush supporters like to remind us that "freedom isn't free," and they are right. However, they are usually refering to dead soldiers and civilians. The price of freedom, I think, is that we must educate ourselves and be active in our political system.

Apathy is the death of democracy.
Comfort is the death of democracy.


etienne

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Old 09-28-04, 02:50 AM   #2
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Etienne, I admire very much your committment to a cause. Not every body will put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. But why do you wish for Kerry to win the presidency over Bush?

Every president since, and including, Kennedy, could have been convicted of war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Even my personal hero, Carter, could have been. Only their proximity to the nuclear button prevents any just recourse.

Have you forgotten that these two candidates belong to the very same secret groups, where contests like a presidential election is played for fun, like you or I would play a game of chess? Anything that you actually see, in the papers or on television for example, has already been scripted and vetted well in advance. Think WWF, but with a much bigger publicity machine and fewer steroids.

Tell me please, why a candidate, ANY candidate -- even Kerry -- would spent 75 MILLION dollars (or more) for an election campaign in order to secure a public post where the yearly salary is only $750,000.00. No truly honest person, regardless of political background or so-called beliefs, would ever commit such a farce.

Will Kerry undo the Patriot Act?
Will he un-invade Iraq?
Or Afghanistan?
Will he try and convict Bush, or any of his cabinet, for war crimes?
Will he rebuild Iraq to it former ancient glory?
Will he reveal all the govt. knows about 9/11?
(Just to mention a few...)

If you say no to even one of these, and I'm sure you can, then it only goes to show how the entire election process has been kidnapped and held hostage, at the expense of people who really DO care about their country -- like you and me.
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Old 09-28-04, 03:14 AM   #3
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Chance, really, I don't think anyone here is unaware of all that. I would never vote Democrat if my life depended on it, except this year. We're all choosing the lesser of two evils, and we know it, it's just that the divide between the demons seems a bit larger this time around.
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Old 09-28-04, 06:44 AM   #4
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Old 09-28-04, 06:51 AM   #5
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This is exactly what the power brokers want you to believe. If you think for even one second that there is any real difference at all between Bush and Kerry, those in power have won. Game, set, match. Vote for Bush, they win. Vote for Kerry, they win. Only either Bush or Kerry, the puppets, lose the game. The guys pulling the strings win no matter what you, as an honest voter, does.

The American political system does not need Change, it needs Reform. So far as I can tell, the only way reform is going to happen under the current system (without any Constitutional revisions or Amendments) is for additional parties to get involved. The two-party system is inherently corrupt, and far too easy to manipulate as I have been trying to describe earlier.

Congress must be split apart into 3 or more pieces/parties before any true reform can take place. Only then will honest and dilligent debate return to the Capitol.

So, if I were to advocate anything at this point, it would be to spend one's efforts in building up a viable third party. Propping up either one of the two we have now just doesn't make any sense to me. The lesser or two devils is still a devil, regardless.

Sure, it may take another 20 years for reform such as this to ever take place, but as Etienne mentioned, 8,000 years is a long time. What's another 20? Either way, I could never rest comfortably knowing that my time, money -- or God forbid, my vote -- went to either current party. No way. I would rather prop up the less corrupt Sicilian Mafia.
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Old 09-28-04, 10:20 AM   #6
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Nader/Bush 2004!
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Old 09-28-04, 10:28 AM   #7
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I'm writing in Lucifer. Let's get rid of the middle men altogether!
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Old 09-28-04, 06:00 PM   #8
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To me, there is no "America" to defend. The world is so connected. The borders are broken and blurred. It's not about a bunch of contries in the world its wealth versus wealth. Where ever the money is, that's where the power is. Do I have money? No.

So when sweeps week comes around this November, I'll get to see some T&A, and something I'm halfway interested in, but the rest of the season, they're gonna care more about pleasing the advertisers.

There's a chance that this system could change eventually, and that's why I'm voting; only to build the momentum. The truth is, the president doesn't control the military and it's not a job for a genius.
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Old 09-30-04, 01:45 AM   #9
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Chance and anyone else,


Chance, I couldn't agree with you more on so many points.

Nothing makes me more disgusted by the democratic party than working with them.

I am a realist, however, and right now they are the ONLY option against Bush. Every vote cast for a third party is a vote for Bush. Every ballot not cast is a vote for Bush. The current administration is so overwhelmingly bad that they must go. Will Kerry be GREAT for the country or the world, I doubt it. I do not believe, however, that he will do as much harm as the current government is doing.

Kerry's estate (thanks to his ketchup queen wife) is over $500,000,000. I do not expect to have anywhere near that amount of money in my lifetime, and I do not expect anyone I know to strike it that rich. When you've got that much money, you just don't care about certain things. You don't. Even if you come from 'humble' origins (which Kerry does not).

I could Kerry bash all day, but I won't because he is the lesser of two evils, like it or not.

I do respect that he actually has served in combat, and despite what the republican noise machine says, he served honorably. I respect a man who has been in the trenches.

For example, have you ever worked at a festival or event where the organizers are / were performers? Don't you notice that they have an intrinsic awareness of your needs and what you are going through, and what kind of support you need to do a great show and entertain the audience? They have been there themselves, so they KNOW what you're going through and they know what you need to succeed. I like that.

Besides, I simply do not want a "war time president" that has never been shot at. That has never had to kill someone else, that has never seen attrocities commited by both his own side and the other, that has never watched his friends die or be horribly maimed for life. War has such incredible consequences that I want the man who declares it, for whatever reason, to know EXACTLY what he is asking the young men and women of this country to do.

That man is not Bush, nor is it a single member of his senior administration. I find that dangerous. They are investing in a business that they have no experience or knowledge of. It's like a 55 year old magician running into the center ring of a circus to perform on the flying trapeze, and his only preparation was to watch a few movies about the trapeze and have a few chit chats with professional trapeze artists.

I digress.

Working with the Kerry Campaign is fun and it's funny. Mostly it's "hmmmm" funny, not "ha ha" funny." Generally speaking, we meet at the campaign headquarters at 9:00 a.m. and break up into groups of 4 to drive to where ever it is we are going to canvas. I insist on driving, because thanks to doing gigs all over New England, I know Massachussetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, & Connecticut VERY well. The only time I let someone else drive so I could take a nap we got hopelessly lost.

There always seems to be at least one REALLY annoying person in the car. Like the guy who insists on talking about politics the whole ride and everyone in the car is like "we know. we know. WE FUCKING KNOW!"

Or the even MORE annoying guy who always points out a Kerry sign or bumper sticker. That may not sound so bad, but imagine riding with some guy for an hour and a half, and every 30 seconds he says "Kerry sign" or "Kerry bumper sticker." Makes me want to buy an assault weapon.

but I digress again...

Chance, you mention that a two party system is no good and I couldn't agree with you more. HOWEVER, this is where my French background gives me some perspective (no, it is not all an act).

In France, we have 7 "major" political parties, and then many other smaller ones.

major parties:

FN (Front National) Extreme right wing.

RPR (Rassemblement pour la Republique) Jacque Chirac's Partie. Center Right, but mostly right wing

UDF (Union pour la Democratie Francaise) Center right, but more center

PS (Parti Socialiste) Left

PC (Parti Communist) Left and right. Really their own entity.

Les Verts (Green Partie) Very left, but also a one-issue party

MRG (Mouvement des radicaux de gauche) EXTREME left.

There are also a lot of one-issue parties, or flavor-of-the-month political parties.
The benefit to all this diversity is that the debate is larger, more complex. People in France tend to be more politically aware. There is A LOT of debate within the parites as well. Goverment in France tends to move slower.

The downside to this is the SIZE of the goverment in France. Did you watch the primaries for the Democratic party here in the USA? Nine candidate doing "super debates." It's a bit like that, but worse. 3-4 canditates per party times 7-10.

Also, the major parites (RPR, PS) tend to have more money than the other parties so they can dominate the airwaves.

Also, beuracracy in France is easily double that of the USA, and believe me, that is a REAL pain in the ass. Cronyism comes into play as well, in a big way.

But you know what, I would really like to see a "Frenchification" of politics in the USA.

There was a time in this country when there were "anti-trust" laws to break up business monopolies and competition crushing forces in the business market. I would like to see these principles applied to the two parties.

I would like to see the Republican party broken up into:
the Radical Right (Bush's party), the Moderates (John McCain) and the Centerists (Arnold Schwarzenegger).
I would also like to see the Democrats broken up into the Liberal (Al Sharpton), Moderates (Kerry) and the Conservative left (Leiberman)

This is a long way off, however.

The reason I'm campaigning for Kerry is because it is what is needed right now. Bush is HORRIBLE and Kerry is the only realistic alternative. Also, it is SO damn easy to put up political posts on a forum or blather on to people you know share your political opinions. I'm tired of that, and to be honest it does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change the political climate in this or any other country.

I feel that this election is more important than any other in the history of the USA and if I did not get out there to talk to people and motivate them then I will be doing myself and the world a HUGE disservice. It's not enough to simply have an opinion.

I'm also reading quite a bit. Just read: Imperial Hubris (why America is Losing the War on Terror), Against All Enemies, War and The American Presidency and currently reading Shake Hands with the Devil : The Failure of Humanity in Rwanda

but I digress again.

The point is, like I stated before, the price of freedom is that we must educate ourselves and be active in our political system. Apathy is the death of freedom.



etienne
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Old 09-30-04, 10:30 AM   #10
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Default Far be it for me to consider what other people think...

Chance, you make irrefutable points, blue shit, red shit, its all shit, but you neglect
one major plus in the dream of putting Kerry in the White House: that it would send the right message to other countries about the American people.

(It also would say "Hey, we're dumb, but not fucking blind as well!" to said puppetstring pullers, and, while certainly failing to change, might slow the downward spiral a fraction.)

Go Frenchie Go.
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Old 09-30-04, 12:10 PM   #11
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Default still not convinced...

...but keep trying.

Tell me Taxi, when British or French voters (purely for sake of example) go to the polls, do you think they spend much time considering whether Americans or Canadians will approve of their choice?

Hell, Taxi, it wasn't so very long ago that the vote would have gone to the guy most hated/feared by the rest, so at least they would be afraid of messing with him -- if there was even a vote to be had, that is. Last I studied the subject, it wasn't so long ago that most of Europe was still firmly in the grip of dictators and monarchs. In fact, some of it still is!

When the 13 colonies were becoming federated States, we were sending emissaries and diplomats over to do business with the rulers we had left behind. You know, those pesky "royal" households that were running things way back when.

Take for instance, Queen Elizabeth, Prince Charles or Prince Rainier of Monaco. Oh, wait, that wasn't 230 years ago -- they're still there today! Holy shit! And they want to tell America how to elect a president? Can someone say "Ooops" please.

Show me a blind and stupid American, and I'll show you a pompous ass European who wishes he was one.

But I digress.
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Old 09-30-04, 12:17 PM   #12
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Wink Re: Far be it for me to consider what other people think...

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I'm not gonna say it ... I'm just not!!!!!

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Old 09-30-04, 12:32 PM   #13
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Kerry all the way bro! He is a great man with ten times better leadership skills then Goerge Bush could ever buy. He would very much improve Canada U.S relations. In Canada we generally dont like Bush. He is very shovenistic, arrogant, ingnorant, world dominater, Ranching Hick. Bush grew up in a presidential childhood. Imagine how perfect he had to be!! He doesnt know how the everyday person lives. Hes never experienced the struggle. He said on DR. Phil (Im in college with 3 channels, dont laugh) that he wondered why parents dont teach their children to grow up to be confident people that know there potential. I was never shown that but more or less learn it through my f%@#&* up life I endured, so Im greatful for that. But he doesnt know what people go through growing up, He had secret service carrying his ass around every where, wiping his ass, feeding him with a silver spoon. He never got taunted, or ridiculed, perfect childhood. Kerry is a normal man withthe intelligence of a leader, and the anatomy of the blue collar man. Hes been to war, understands basic human needs, and most of all to me is that hed fix this struggling relation between Canada and the U.S that was once sooooo strong, especially when Chretien was Prime Minister and Clinton was President.

To sum it all up GO KERRY!
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Old 09-30-04, 01:28 PM   #14
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Default Does the blind and stupid american have to be the same person?

Its fun being a knee jerk reactionary isn't it. And that collage education lets you drop stuff like "When the 13 colonies were becoming federated States"
Cept there are a few things that don't survive examination.
Your points seem to be.
Para 1. no one thinks of us when voting, why should we think of them.

Bit tangental but interesting startoff
Para 2. history has shown us that a big stick is respected.
(insights coming thick and fast now)
and
"Europe was still firmly in the grip of dictators and monarchs. In fact, some of it still is!"
Please define "grip"


para3. (very difficult to paraphrase)
America talked to europe when it was first forming
or
We will do business with anyone.Even people who had persecuted us for our religious beliefs.

Para4
Royalty exists in Europe and they have a nerve to tell us how to vote.
If this is the summation of your argument then I can only presume you have been deliberately retarded by your education system or that you were born that way. Either way you don't seem, on examination, to have a point.
Royalty does exist but I have yet to come across anything publicly about their wishes for the american people.You seem to be flailing round with unconnected semi aggressive halftruths.
There are no dictators in Europe Chance, A dictator by definition rules by decree (or edict or declaration or basicly force.) I may be wrong, name me one.
There is indeed royalty living in Europe but unless you can furnish us with examples of their power then the question again must be asked, 'your point is?'
Prince Rainier of Monaco has about as much political clout as Micheal Jackson (who we all know is the King of Pop)
And didn't he marry into Hollywood ie Grace kelly.
but I digress.
finally

"Show me a blind and stupid American, and I'll show you a pompous ass European who wishes he was one."

Thanks for leaving this to last as it sums up perfectly the ugly stupid arrogant american the rest of the world dispises.

Now I have a point.
Americans may do well to wonder what the world is thinking as they head to the polls. Because their sons and daughters are being blown limb from limb in a country far away and it seems thats set to continue.
Which of the 2 choices I wonder would be more capable of admitting mistakes and humbly asking for help .
Humility is not impossible, after all its a human trait.

Now as far as this search for a blind stupid american goes, Your eyesight Isn't perfect is it Chance, I've seen you wearing specs.
So you only now have to find a 'comparitively' Pompous ass European who wishes they were american.

good luck

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Old 09-30-04, 02:40 PM   #15
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Default like I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted

Martin, you garden variety garden slug, you deliberately misquoted me. I said "not so long ago" when I mentioned dictators. Ever heard of Mussolini? Franco perhaps? And who was that height-challenged French guy again? All well inside the time America was founded, as per my original statement and intended meaning -- as you well know. Our exchanges here and elsewhere would go much smoother if your intention was to spread fact more than fiction.

A casual reading of your comments makes it seem that I somehow approve of Bush and his policies -- although I don't, never have, and have never stated anything to the contrary. Of the two of us, you would give Rove a run for his money.

And it shouldn't matter about the size of the country, either. Dictatorship is dictatorship, regardless of how you dress it up. Monaco, for example, is strictly imperialistic. If you think otherwise, I will volunteer to come and video tape your arrest as you try busking there without Royal permission. Not Bill of Rights/Free Speech permission, but Royal House of Rainier permission. Try near the Casino Royale, there's a very nice square in the front. Or maybe up on the hill in front of the royal residence. VERY nice square with thousands of tourists... Is my point clear yet, or must I go on?

I am neither knee jerk nor arrogant. My ideas are carefully worded and I rarely feel superior to those around me. You might make it an exception, however. Nor am I a flag waving, card carrying American syncophant. Hell, my friends around here actually tell me to cool it about bashing America as much as I do, and my thoughts so far in this thread only go to show my distaste for the current scheme/regime in Washington. To accuse me of anything more or less only marks you as knee-jerk. So take a look at the "man in the mirror" before you decide to keep slinging that mud; today I'm teflon coated.

But sue me if I happen find it extremely ironic that countries who had/have imperialistic/dictatorial overlords as recently as... today... want to direct American politics. Critique all you want, but don't be offended if the elections don't suit your taste. As I said, I'd be willing to bet that narry a European voter loses even a minute of sleep over what any other nation feels concerning their vote. So, then, why should an American voter?

And for perspectives' sake, those bombs, terrible as they are -- and they are -- have Englands fingerprints all over them as well. So you'd do well to spend as much time arguing your point with Mr Blair (or Mr Howard) as you do with me. But here I am in any case. Keep slugging on...

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Old 09-30-04, 03:56 PM   #16
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"You deliberately misquoted me. I said "not so long ago" when I mentioned dictators."

Well Chance the full quote was
"it wasn't so long ago that most of Europe was still firmly in the grip of dictators and monarchs. In fact, some of it still is!"

So I didn't deliberately misquote you, you're mistaken. However your 'carefully worded ideas' failed to make any distinction between dictators or monarchs (and now theres a new "imperialistic" tag also)
I suggest you borrow a dictionary.
Simply using 'or' instead of 'and' between 'dictators' and 'monarchs' would have given you room to move you now lack.
You will find that dictator and imperialistic are irrelevant when using Monaco, which is a constitutional monarcy run by a National council.
(Joined the UN in 93)
In England you can be moved on or worse for 'Obstructing her majesty's carrageways'
By your logic it would follow that England is still in the 'Grip' of an imperilistic monachistic dictator.
(Hint...it isn't)

but by the second post your point begins its laborious process of cristallisation.
"I'd be willing to bet that narry a European voter loses even a minute of sleep over what any other nation feels concerning their vote. So, then, why should an American voter?"

It won't satisfy you but my answer to that question was my only point in my last post.
But your comphehensive difficulties aside. I think personally that this (like the last) american election will be a farce, that the 30 states with electronic voting systems proven to be insecure will have Bush win by a dignified amount and that the draft will follow in the months that follow as the gloves come off and whole cities in Iraq are liquidated and that sometime in the next term of the bush monachy the seeds of the second american civil war will blossom. (which is what much of the homeland security effort is focused on, gathering information about Americans)

Easily something for Europeans to give a fuck about as they'll have to pick sides.
Its a great time to be a clown

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Old 09-30-04, 06:30 PM   #17
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Chance,

I don't really have to respond to the inanity of most of your posts, because Martin pretty much said it all.

but when you say:

"I'd be willing to bet that narry a European voter loses even a minute of sleep over what any other nation feels concerning their vote. So, then, why should an American voter?"

Well, this is just plain ignorant. Some of the of the most hotly contested issues in Europe are the EU, the European parliment and the EEC. People cast their votes for PRECISELY what other countries will think of them. Be it Pro Europe or Anti-Europe.

also:

"Show me a blind and stupid American, and I'll show you a pompous ass European who wishes he was one."

is arrogant. I don't know of any Europeans, pompous or otherwise, who want to be Americans. George Bush had this exact same line of thought when he invaded Iraq. He truly believed that the troops would be showered with flowers and the iraqi people would immediately throw off the shackles of their culture to run down to the strip mall to buy nikes and eat big macs.

So your friends tell you to cool it on the American bashing? Well it sounds like you just hate everyone then and just turn and turn in frustration blaming "the man" any "man" for keeping you down.




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Old 10-01-04, 12:18 AM   #18
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Don't shoot the delivery boy fellas!

Don't like my comments about authoriarian rule in Europe? Fine. So then I'll ask: What European country was NOT under authoritarian control in the year 1776?

And: When was the last one unseated?

And: Are there any still in existance?

Etienne. Your last comments would carry much more weight if it weren't for LePen, Haider (et al) and almost 40% of European voters that back them dragging your argument deep into the mud.

I have been living in Europe now for more than 5 years. This past summer was my 6th straight season working Vienna for example. In this time it is safe to say that I have spoken with thousands of Europeans from all walks of life, and many of them are now close friends. And we spend hours and hours discussing all manner of things, even politics. And yes, they are quite surprised that I am so willing to point out the folly of my govt. as passionately as I do.

So much for the Arrogant American title you wish to pin on. Don't confuse arrogance with confidence or determination.

And in those moments when I am first introduced to a European, and they learn that I have been living abroad for so long, there is a 90 to 95% chance they will say "Why?" Why live in Europe, Why not stay in the US? "I wouldn't live here if I could be there..." and so on. It happens almost every time.

So yes, I have gotten the impression over time, that many Europeans wish they were American. And why not? Sometimes I wish I wasn't.

The video taping offer is still on the table, Martin. Put your money where your mouth is, and after your release we'll talk more about what is and isn't democracy, by what ever name you choose to give it.
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Old 10-01-04, 02:07 AM   #19
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Chance,

Ahhh, Le Pen, yes that FASCIST bastard. I actually typed a few lines about him in my last post, before I deleted them because I did not want to digress.

So let me talk about that ass hole Le Pen for a moment.

First off, YES, there exists a nationalistic movement in France, as their does in every other European nation. I simply do not see how this "drags my argument into the mud." My argument was that people in Europe DO think about foreign policy when they vote, and the people who support ass holes like Le Pen tend to think this about europe and anyone who is not white, "pure" french : Screw you, France first, Allons les enfants de la patrie le jour de gloire est arrive!!! They very much have foreign policy in mind when they vote for a nationalist.

I should also mention that in France there is a two tierd electoral system. To elect the president, first we have an election with ALL the candidates who are on the ballot (all 7-12 of them) and then the two candidates who get the majority of votes go to a second round of voting where it is only those two on the ballot.

In 2002, the French press was just as apathetic as the American press in 2000 and kept bombarding us that it was going to be Jospin (PS) vs. Chirac (RPR) and that France was evenly split and that nobody cared.

Well, Le Pen mobilized his base of Nationalistic, Racist old people and beat Jospin by .1%. No shit, it was that close.

Following this upset France went into an uproar and realized what was at stake. Le Pen held a rally in Paris and approximately 1,000 people showed up. At the same time there was an Anti-Le Pen rally and over 100,000 people showed up.

Chirac won by a LANDSLIDE. (Personally, I voted Jospin in the first election. I HATE Chirac, because he is a slimey, corrupt BASTARD. I had to vote for him the second time, however)

16% of France supports Nationalistic bastards like Le Pen, not 40%. Maybe 40% of Austriens support Haider, but then again, when you are the country of Hitler's birth, that is to be expected.


"So much for the Arrogant American title you wish to pin on. Don't confuse arrogance with confidence or determination."

Jesus CHRIST you sound more and more like George W. Bush.


It is also funny that you mention 1776. Because the American Revolution was ENTIRELY funded by France and it was the French navy that won the battle of Yorketown.

France & England where involved in a vicarious war that they fought through the colonies. Ironically enough, this bankrupted France and brought about the French Revolution of 1789 and the heads of the monarchs rolled and the Republique was born (after the 'Reign of Terror' of course).

Your explanation of "Europeans who want to be Americans" was incoherent at best and just plain retarded if you have any perspective at all. When people ask "Why are you living here instead of the USA" does NOT mean "You should live in the USA because it is better than here."

You see, people in Europe are VERY attached to where they are born. They love their country, their language, their heritage, even their shitty little village. Most people in Europe stay as close to the region that they were born for their entire lives. When they meet someone who has chosen to leave all this behind, it is quite baffling to them because it is simply outside their mindset. They litterally can't comprehend that someone would choose to live thousands of miles away from their family and birthplace if they were not from a third world country.

People in Europe love their home, love their countries, their culture, etc. But people in Europe also realise (far more than Americans) that their country has a fucked up past. Austria has all the cultural guilt that they deserve for jumping in bed with Hitler. France had her Nazi collaborators, as well as the horrors that France commited in Algeria and the African colonies. England is to be blamed for the USA, but they always can back it up with "well Canada is cool!" But I digress.


etienne

Last edited by le pire; 10-01-04 at 02:35 AM.
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Old 10-01-04, 05:36 AM   #20
Peter Voice
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What a Wonderful discussion.
Amazing as it seems, I agree totally with Chance's sentiments in his first two posts. It just seems a pity that his personality has taken over the rest of his contributions.

In Aust., voting is "compulsory". We have what is called a "Two Party Preferencial" system. This means if you vote for a minor party your vote will eventually end up supporting one or the other of the 2 major parties. In other words, even if you hate them, you are forced to vote for one or the other of the two evils.

After the duly elected "Whitlam" government of Australia was deposed by British and American interests, I did not vote in the 1975 federal elections. The gov,t. duly issued me with the standard $50 fine.

I didn't pay my fine and, as these things do, it grew and grew.

After some discussions between my "people" and the Gov't's "people", it was decided that it would be better to leave one eccentric alone than open a very disturbing can of worms by taking me to court. As far as I know, I am the only person in Australia not legally required to vote. I get a lot of flack for this when it comes up, as many people think I'm shirking or abdicating my responsibilities. I find this interesting considering the fact that my political writings are regularly published in the major national daily newspapers and I've personally had legislation changed at federal and state level (even named in parliament). I consider myself as a serious political element.

I bring all this up because we are having a federal election in Australia next weekend.

Yes, chance, we will think very hard about who you might vote for and how the person we vote for might be received by who you vote for. And you are right, too, because it won't really matter to the real powers that be. Do you have to be so rude, though.

Etienne is also right and what he is doing is of untold value. Reform or change has to come from somewhere and getting rid of george is an excellent start.

We are trying everthing we can to get rid of john howard here. Unfortunately it seems the fear-mongering of Murdoch and other media manipulaters is reinforcing right wing views world wide.

When challenged by the electoral office here, I was able to prove that the system here was unrepresentative, impractical and possibly illegal and have maintained that position ever since. The American electoral system (of which I confess only a passing knownedge) leaves me staggered.

I have never supported democracy as I firmly believe the general public is too stupid to successfully run a root raffle in a brothel.

The thing that strikes me is the desperate need to remove people like george bush and john howard from any position of power and I support any-one working toward this end.

Go for it, Etienne
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Last edited by Peter Voice; 10-01-04 at 06:24 AM.
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